What needs to be updated when a boiler is replaced

[Worcester]

Following on from the recent thread: "should i have a room thermostat with my combi boiler. "

Where it was made clear that this is required under the building regs when replacing a boiler, what else must be updated.

When you read the Domestic Building Compliance Guide 2010 ( Planning Portal - Building Services Compliance Guides )

If you take the interpretation that when replacing Gas fired boilers, you need to include for section 5 page 23, (i.e. a room thermostat) then how much else do you also need to change?

What says you do not need to upgrade the zones to section 1,2,3,4 or 6 ?
How do you differentiate? or where are the guides to what does and doesn't need to be updated?
Wher do you stop?

The comments on the thread that triggered this also claim that you need to provide interlock, - then what excludes the requirments to include more than one zone if the property is >150m2 ?

That then triggers the next question - with all the boiler replacements (straight swap) done under ECO, why weren't room stats required to be installed as well if they weren't there already?

 

[Worcester]

Reading another thread eleswher they suggest that only the requirment for boiler interlock needs to be met (obviosly normal TRV's won't provide that) presumably that could be met by a zone valve (if one is fitted..)

So who's right? And where do you get that fact / interpretation from?

 

[REDSAW]

in a word........

the customers £

 

[Worcester]

in a word........
the customers £

Nope, we walk from customers if they won't take professional advice, as we know what problems it leads to down the road.

 

[Koogatubac]

That wont pay bills. We need money to survive...

 

[Worcester]

So no-one knows?

 

[plumber0808]

It the customer don't want a room stat I would just note it in the log book offered but declined.

It ends with how much they want to pay. As with all other upgrades I only recommend if I think they have the money for it.
mr cheap combi swap will under cut you on every job in the land leaving you quoting building regs while he counts his wad.

 

[chris watkins]

One of the klan on here emailed Government department some time ago for guidance & a definitive answer to this & received a good reply which I kept (as I teach the Part L), it is at work so will post it up tomorrow.
I think it should be a minimum of TRV's on all rads & towel rads except the room with the thermostat to provide the interlock for any boiler change.

 

[Ermintrude]

Trv are recommended , interlock is required there are no choices on this time and temp interlock is mandatory . Also if in unheated space pipes must be lagged. - spoken to LABC a few times. You install a new boiler you have to meet building regs - they are above gas safe, gas safe is only there to comply with building regs. If your an illegal installer you are supposed to be chased by building control as GS don't have remit.

If over 150 must be zoned with separate interlock. ( only on new installs and or where significant changes to pipework / system) like for like isn't included in this as mandatory requirement just recommendation.

 

[Worcester]

Thanks, I was trying to find what MUST be done under Building Regs, as opposed to what is the best to do

We will always try to do the best, however the challenge is sometimes, you've got what you've got...
Because of the scale of the cost of the replacement work that we do, and the changes to they way the new system should be used, the client will usually adopt any recommendations (within reason) that we make.

@Chris Watkins, much appreciated that would be awesome.

 

[basildog]

That wont pay bills. We need money to survive...

Any body that will sell themselves just for money really needs to take a long hard look at their life in my opinion !
I could live in my van and survive on next to nothing before I sell myself and my beliefs !

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

One of the klan on here emailed Government department some time ago for guidance & a definitive answer to this & received a good reply which I kept (as I teach the Part L), it is at work so will post it up tomorrow.
I think it should be a minimum of TRV's on all rads & towel rads except the room with the thermostat to provide the interlock for any boiler change.

I think Chris is right, partly because he is ALWAYS right!
There are a number of old threads on this.
AND i remember asking the very same question about 2 years ago - asking where the answer was in official black and white.
I'm sure Chris will come back on this and I will also try to dig up the reference.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

...You install a new boiler you have to meet building regs - they are above gas safe, gas safe is only there to comply with building regs. If your an illegal installer you are supposed to be chased by building control as GS don't have remit.

...

This isn't how I would explain the difference between GS and LABC - they are disrinct bodies with different remits created because of totally different legislation.

illegal installers are NOT chased by BC
and
GS is NOT there to comply with Building Regs

LABC - we know what they do - monitor & enforce building regs.
Building regs include stuff about heating, insulation, ventilation etc - so we need to know about them.

GS are set up under the Health & Safety Executive - to do with monitoring & enforcing that bit of the Health and safety legislation that we know and love - the Gas Installation & Use Safety Regs.

GSR do have an important role in catching illegal gas insrallers - they are the first people to report illegal installers to. GSR exist under the HSE it is the HSE who may investigate and actually do the prosecution.

In recent years under BUilding regs MANY competent persons schemes were set up - so that installers (eg. windows, electrics, gas heating, oil heating) could self certify that their work complies with building regs.
This means that the the Building Control officer does not need to inspect it.

GSR simply administer a self cert competant persons scheme for us when we install boilers, but this is separate to their main function and the reason they were set up - which is to administer registration of people competent to WORK on gas under Gas Regs.

 

[chris watkins]

As promised please find info below (sorry but can't remember who did all the hard work & should take the credit)
Right, time to put this one to bed once and for all...

I spoke to a Building Control officer at the local council and they advised me for a definite answer I need to speak to the Department for Communities and Local Government.

I emailed the following to someone at Department for Communities and Local Government who was there to give advice on Part L.

I have a question regarding Part L & Domestic Building Services Guide.

If a boiler is being replaced (like for like i.e natural gas fuelled for natural gas fuelled, in England) in a domestic dwelling what are the requirements for zoning the central heating system?

Is it right that if the boiler is being replaced that the central heating needs to be separated into two different zones (1 zone upstairs & 1 zone downstairs).

Thank you,

(not the whole email but you get the drift...)

I then received a reply (this is not the full email...) from them stating;


When simply replacing a boiler, there is no requirement to upgrade the whole heating system to meet current standards. In general it is only the component being replaced that needs to comply.

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective. For example, there could be one room thermostat upstairs and one downstairs, or one could be in a lounge and the other in a home office.

There is further information in the Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide at www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf - see for example Supplementary Information on page 24.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards

So finally I have an answer. No zones needed on a boiler change... and only need to put zones in a new heating system if cost effective.

So basically no need to zone off new system either really (unless greater than 150m2).

I find it surprising that no one had a definite answer everyone kind of guessing (it is complicated I know).

Now I'm sure some people will be sitting there thinking "I knew that anyway" well - I didn't.

Thank you for your time and interest!

Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...-new-replacement-systems-4.html#ixzz26GdUePV9

 

[Masood]

As promised please find info below (sorry but can't remember who did all the hard work & should take the credit)
Right, time to put this one to bed once and for all...

I spoke to a Building Control officer at the local council and they advised me for a definite answer I need to speak to the Department for Communities and Local Government.

I emailed the following to someone at Department for Communities and Local Government who was there to give advice on Part L.

I have a question regarding Part L & Domestic Building Services Guide.

If a boiler is being replaced (like for like i.e natural gas fuelled for natural gas fuelled, in England) in a domestic dwelling what are the requirements for zoning the central heating system?

Is it right that if the boiler is being replaced that the central heating needs to be separated into two different zones (1 zone upstairs & 1 zone downstairs).

Thank you,

(not the whole email but you get the drift...)

I then received a reply (this is not the full email...) from them stating;


When simply replacing a boiler, there is no requirement to upgrade the whole heating system to meet current standards. In general it is only the component being replaced that needs to comply.

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective. For example, there could be one room thermostat upstairs and one downstairs, or one could be in a lounge and the other in a home office.

There is further information in the Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide at www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf - see for example Supplementary Information on page 24.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards

So finally I have an answer. No zones needed on a boiler change... and only need to put zones in a new heating system if cost effective.

So basically no need to zone off new system either really (unless greater than 150m2).

I find it surprising that no one had a definite answer everyone kind of guessing (it is complicated I know).

Now I'm sure some people will be sitting there thinking "I knew that anyway" well - I didn't.

Thank you for your time and interest!

Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...-new-replacement-systems-4.html#ixzz26GdUePV9

That's pretty much what I was taught and have always followed.

Single component change, no requirement to comply, Significant change/upgrade to system, must comply. However, if custard refuses to pay for upgrades to ensure compliance, then record the fact that I recommended it, and take their money with impunity.

 

[plumber0808]

Any body that will sell themselves just for money really needs to take a long hard look at their life in my opinion !
I could live in my van and survive on next to nothing before I sell myself and my beliefs !

I know I couldn't live in my van, no thanks.

I would sell myself and beliefs to keep a roof over my family and some.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

That's pretty much what I was taught and have always followed.

Single component change, no requirement to comply, Significant change/upgrade to system, must comply. However, if custard refuses to pay for upgrades to ensure compliance, then record the fact that I recommended it, and take their money with impunity.

It is this bit that is a bit grey (gray? I never know which)
Replace boiler you must put in TVRS and stat - they used to be optional then became complusory 2010 BR.
Reg has posted many times a link that shows the installer must comply with BR or face heafty fine.
I asked GSR technical line and they also said it is not optional to comply.
It is NOT customer choice.
BUT
of course many other installers don't comply - offer a far cheaper job and we lose work to them.

It's not fair! STamps feet!

 

[Masood]

It is this bit that is a bit grey (gray? I never know which)
Replace boiler you must put in TVRS and stat - they used to be optional then became complusory 2010 BR.
Reg has posted many times a link that shows the installer must comply with BR or face heafty fine.
I asked GSR technical line and they also said it is not optional to comply.
It is NOT customer choice.
BUT
of course many other installers don't comply - offer a far cheaper job and we lose work to them.

It's not fair! STamps feet!

Really?!

I was under the impression - seriously - that you cannot force someone to upgrade to comply with Building Regs.

Have you got a link to the relevant regs please?

 

[chris watkins]

I think Chris is right, partly because he is ALWAYS right!
There are a number of old threads on this.
AND i remember asking the very same question about 2 years ago - asking where the answer was in official black and white.
I'm sure Chris will come back on this and I will also try to dig up the reference.

Thank you kind lady but sadly can confirm that I am most certainly NOT always right.
& A Big Thank you to "rodders" who did all the leg work (emailing) to find the info in the first place, that I have just re-posted.

There seems to be a lot of so called professionals on here who need any excuse not to do what is required (by the Law) & justify their actions with "well if I don't someone else will" & then "I will loose the work". We call this "the race to the bottom" & it is an easy one to win!!!! It will result in plumbing professional sleeping around & sometimes in their vans LOL. There is always someone who will do it for less than you, look at the domestic house bathroom scene, people are working for nothing to gain NVQ, compete with that!!
We need to maintain professional standard & it is the responsibility of us all, of course it would be a lot easier to do this if we had an effective policeman & some prosecutions to remind all of what the Law requires.

 

[basildog]

Thank you kind lady but sadly can confirm that I am most certainly NOT always right.
& A Big Thank you to "rodders" who did all the leg work (emailing) to find the info in the first place, that I have just re-posted.

There seems to be a lot of so called professionals on here who need any excuse not to do what is required & justify their actions with "well if I don't someone else will" & then I will loss the work. We call this "the race to the bottom" & it is an easy one to win!!!! It will result in plumbing professional sleeping around & sometimes in their vans LOL. There is always someone who will do it for less than you, look at the house bathroom scene people are working for nothing to gain NVQ, compete with that!!
We need to maintain professional standard & it is the responsibility of us all, of course it would be a lot easier to do this if we had an effective policeman & some prosecutions to remind all of the Law.

You normally know within a few minutes of meeting a client what type of job they are looking for and many times I have listened politely but already knew there was not a hope I want to do their work !
Am not saying I was the best but have always wanted to try my best, how some can sleep at night I really do wonder. I learnt early on it is not just about money and all this nonsense about keeping a roof over your head we are not in a third world country but we have somehow lost our way and put money in front of all else !

 

[Ermintrude]

Really?!

I was under the impression - seriously - that you cannot force someone to upgrade to comply with Building Regs.

Have you got a link to the relevant regs please?

Using same principle would u upon custards request use 39 year old flue liner or connect a new boiler to an old flue and just record it as ncs? Yeh carry on plumbing.

 

[Masood]

Using same principle would u upon custards request use 39 year old flue liner or connect a new boiler to an old flue and just record it as ncs? Yeh carry on plumbing.

No of course not and that's a very silly analogy to draw. You're better than that. Anything that risks life and health is a no no. Energy efficiency or lack thereof is not going to kill anybody.

In any case I didn't say I disagreed with doing a proper job, far from it. I said that I thought, and was taught, that enforcement did not extend to forcibly imposing Part L Regs on people.

 

[chris watkins]

No of course not and that's a very silly analogy to draw. You're better than that. Anything that risks life and health is a no no. Energy efficiency or lack thereof is not going to kill anybody.

Or it might kill us all, with the predicted sea rises & climatic changes Masood, just hope I go before.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Gas Safe Magazine
The good the bad and the ugly section :
photograph 9

 

[AWheating]

i think a customers ability to pay should be a factor when work is decided upon. If you had an old dear who's boiler went down in the middle of winter and only had a very limited budget then i would fit what she can afford.

 

[chris watkins]

i think a customers ability to pay should be a factor when work is decided upon. If you had an old dear who's boiler went down in the middle of winter and only had a very limited budget then i would fit what she can afford.

Of course AW, we all would & that is what they are saying by allowing use that professional judgement.
On the other hand would you agree to a combi swap for a Land lord who told you they did not want to pay the extra couple of £'s for a room thermostat & a couple of TRV's, to allow there tenants to control the temperature in the flat & thus say a few bob on the running costs? as was the case in my son's rented place !!!

 

[Nostrum]

The actual building regulations are hard to come by. The approved documents (L in this case) we refer to is not actually regulation, more so guidance on compliance with the regulation. If you read the approved document, the only parts that are extract from the regulation are highlighted in green.


The domestic heating compliance guide was compiled to further confuse the likes of me and you. From what I can tell, it it a guide to complying with approved document L, which in itself is a guide for complying with the building regulations..

Anyway, the building regulations state:

L1. Reasonable provision shall be provided for the conservation of fuel and power within buildings by:

(a) Limiting heat gain losses -
(i)through thermal elements and other parts of the building fabric
(ii)from pipes, ducts and vessels, used for space heating, space cooling and hot water services

(b) providing fixed buildings with -
(i) are energy efficient
(ii) have effective controls
(iii) are commissioned by testing and adjusting as necessary to ensure they use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances.

(c) providing with the owner sufficient information about the building, the fixed building services and their maintenance requirements so that the building can be operated in such a way as to use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances.

Approved Document L has guidance for compliance with the building regulations as follows:

Whenever a fixed building service is extended or provided, reasonable provision would be demonstrated by following the guidance as set out in the 'Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide'

The Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide issues the following guidance on complying with the approved document L (which is in itself a guide to compliance of the building regulations)

Recommended minimum standards for controls of gas-fired wet central heating systems

1.0 Boiler Interlock
(a) Boiler based systems should have a boiler control interlock in which controls are wired so that when there is no demand for either space heating or hot water, the boiler and pump are switched off.
9b) The use of thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) alone do not provide interlock.

5.0 Temperature control of space heating
a) Separate temperature control of zones within the dwelling should be provided using;
(i) room thermostats or programmable room thermostats in all zones and
(ii) individual radiator controls such as thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) on all radiators other than the reference rooms (with a thermostat) and bathrooms*

*When an individual system component - such as a boiler or room thermostat - is being replaced, it is not necessary to upgrade the whole system. However, while not essential for compliance with building regulations, in the case of a boiler replacement, because the system has to be drained down, it would be good practise to install thermostatic radiator valves(or equivalent) on all radiators other than the room with the main thermostat, provided the radiators are suitable and the pipework does not need to be altered.

As usual, it leaves a lot open to interpretation. So what is it, recommendation, best practice, regulation? In the extremely unlikely event of being held up in court on a breach of regulation, would you be happy to defend yourself over why you chose not not follow the guidance to comply with building regulation?

Interested to hear other peoples views on it all, personally I fit what is recommended in order to comply with building reg's. I'm also happy to walk away from a job if the price of a room stat is enough to put someone off. I really see no reason these days with the R.F stuff available.

 

[Ermintrude]

Well put !

 

[Nostrum]

here's the official building regulations document if your really bored

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/contents/made

 

[Worcester]

Thanks for all the answers.

Outcome this will really ensure you do install in compliance with the regs: (thanks for the link to the other thread Chris)
[DLMURL="http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/property/building_regulations/9026.html"]How the Building Regulations are enforced and your right to appeal - Property...[/DLMURL]

ALL our contracts state that we will install in accordance with the Building Regs (they have to, else our clients can't claim the RHI), and we issue / raise the Building regs certificate through our certifying body for EVERY job.

How many others issue a Building Regs Certificate after they have replaced a boiler?

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

The actual building regulations are hard to come by. The approved documents (L in this case) we refer to is not actually regulation, more so guidance on compliance with the regulation. If you read the approved document, the only parts that are extract from the regulation are highlighted in green.

YES this is true.
But if you comply with the guidance documents then you are safe.
If you deviate and do your own thing it will be up to you that you did NOT break the law - if someone questions you.

Eg Building Control were not happy we put an outside durgo - which is against building regs (or at least it was at the time, I don't know if it has changed).
WE were able to show the documentation that proved this model was suitable for outside use with insulation.
Otherwise we would have had to change it OR face prosecution.

 

[Nostrum]

Not quite sure how to read that post Tara ! In one aspect you are suggesting following the guidance, yet you have then said that you have complied with building regulation by choosing an alternative to the guidance given, maybe I am reading it wrong so apologise in advance if that's the case.

from my experience, often the building control inspectors are just as confused as we are when it comes to requirements vs recommendations. As you have said, the easiest solution is to adopt the advise in the guidance notes or similar, but when it comes to zoning for example I would have to argue that in many cases it is not practical to do so. The 150m2 rule seemed to make far more sense.

In the case of an average 2-3 bed house with a new system being installed, I wouldn't class multi zoning as 'reasonable in the circumstances' and would argue that it is unlikely to have any real gain considering the additional cost in installation.

i have heard that the zoning requirements are due to be overhauled in the next amendment to L1B.

 

[basildog]

The chances of a prosecution be a local authority for a minor breach of building regulations are pretty slim !
Most local authorities are skint ! Maybe they should have looked at their pay and bonus also pensions before it got to this point ?
I worked on a large house where we installed a wooden panelled ceiling the building inspector said he wanted it fire proofed but could not force the issue !
Spoke to the client who thought it a good idea so was carried out with a specialist paint that I researced to find as mrs T said we also submitted manufacturers data sheet and building control was happy .
They cannot possibly keep up with innovations or new products just as a tradesman cannot .
You learn every day and the day you do not want to learn or listen is the day you should pack up your kit for good !

 

[Ermintrude]

You are supposed to keep up it's called professional development. Well that's what I heard ? I've got 26 parkray coke back boilers to install on a one piper before Xmas..... One of the lads reckons that you can get a 'gas Backboiler'??? Sounds a bit too futuristic if you ask me. What next upstairs toilets?

 

[AWheating]

Of course AW, we all would & that is what they are saying by allowing use that professional judgement.
On the other hand would you agree to a combi swap for a Land lord who told you they did not want to pay the extra couple of £'s for a room thermostat & a couple of TRV's, to allow there tenants to control the temperature in the flat & thus say a few bob on the running costs? as was the case in my son's rented place !!!

tbh i would not give the landlord the option, just fit a stat and include it in the price even if your charge just covers costs.