• Welcome to PlumbersForums.net - The international free plumbing advice forum. Professional plumbers sharing advice with fellow plumbers and DIY alike. Register for free today! - Checkout the Plumbing Advice forum and then our Plumbing Videos area which still needs populating.

From the United States of America? - Checkout our specific plumbing forum for you:USA Plumbing Forum

Discuss Help us understand how this UFH system works please! in the Water Underfloor Heating Installations area at PlumbersForums.net

Messages
78
Hi folks.
Sorry this is a long one. I'll try and keep it organised.
Son has just moved into a purpose built (2013 ish) 4th floor apartment as a tenant. No gas in the building. Triple glazing.

1. The letting agent led him to believe that the electricity supply was on an Eco 7 meter. He didn't provide a move in meter reading but told son to contact the management company (MC) to get them to read the meter as residents don't have access to the meters. We've emailed the MC to get them to come and read the meter and also to provide a meter number.

2, We called SSE who are the provider to be told they don't have any record of an Eco 7 meter for the apartment and the meter hasn't been read since September last year. A bill has just arrived (not addressed to son) which only shows one unit rate of 17p per Kwh. It's an estimated bill (both readings) for one month Dec-Jan and it's £55.

3. Re the system components (that we can see in the apartment)

a
An Elson Coral E electric water heater
Immersion.jpg

b Horstmann Economy 7 Quartz timer.It has an analogue timer dial with what appear to be FIXED on times of midnight till 03.30, then 0500-0900.
A switch with TIMED or OFF
A boost timer dial for up to 60 minutes.
Eco 7 timer.jpg

c 2 Continental analogue room thermostats in LR/Bedroom. They have a switch on the side . Timed (clock) day (sun) and night (moon)


d A Rossweiner Armaturern und Messgerate, model might be WFM 21. Is on one of the pipes and has what appear to be sensors heading off from it (haven't quite figured out what's what yet) and ATM is showing a Kwh value in the digital display window. This value doesn't go up and down depending whether the pump is running but may be going up on a day to day basis. Not sure ATM. It appears to have a button on it which may allow toggling through different info in the display window.
Rossweiner heat meter.jpg

e a strange looking thing (see photos) in the pipework above d. It looks like some sort of flow adjustment. Says BOSS on it and it has 2 little windows (not glass). One window has a blue background with the number 2 in it. The other has a red background and the top of 1 and bottom of 2 are in the window. Directly underneath this (but above d) there's a red lever and a blue lever att TO ached to the pipe. Could this be a blender valve?
Unknown BOSS.jpg

f another Continental "box" that has labels, "pump" and "boiler" with lights. I know the one for the pump comes on and you hear a click when you turn one of the stat's up so that they call for heat. I don't think the boiler light comes on though.
Unknown Continental.jpg

To help us understand how the controls function I think it might be easier to assume Eco 7 as it seems that the system is set up for that
My understanding is that the emersion heater is heating water overnight as per the timer b
The domestic hot water production involves a mains pressure water pipe (the hot water pressure is very good) running through the hot water in the tank, so effectively it's acting as a heat exchanger.
Re the UF heating, is the water in the tank (thermal store) being circulated around the UF heating, or is there a pipe that runs through the hot water tank for that too?

I've read about the Continenetal stats and they say that when they're used with a particular timer on the system, when set on the timed mode they'll reduce the set temp automatically by 4c during the times when the system is heating water ie overnight.
Is the timer b fulfilling the function of a timer on the system?
If it is then I'm confused as it seems to suggest that , if for eg the stat was set on 19c and timer mode, the temp setting would automatically drop by 4c so no heat called for until the room temp was 15c between the hours of midnight and 03.30, then 0500-0900, which means the flat would be cold if you were getting up at say 0800? Or would the hour and a half of heating between 03.30 and 5 be enough to ensure the place was still warm at 0800?

Last night was the first night he slept there so we're just getting to know what's going on with the system ATM.

He had the keys for a few days before he actually moved in and we didn't know if we should be turning the switch on the timer b, to OFF. We just left it set on timed and turned the stats down to 17c. When we've arrived at 1300, it takes about 30 minutes for the flat to get up to 19-20c from 17c on a cold (1 c) but sunny day (sun shines into the bedroom) and 40 minutes on a cold (3c) cloudy day. Once up to that temp' the LR stays up to temp for around 2 hrs, but because the bedroom stat' is near the door to the hall and the hall doesn't seem to have any UF heating, that cools down more quickly unless you close the bedroom door.

Again apologies for the long post. Hoping someone can help out. The letting agent lives in the block but doesn't seem to know that much about the system and didn't know if he had an eco 7 meter. Amazes me how little people know/care about energy usage/£.
 
Messages
152
Whilst not being able to help with the bulk of your queries, I can advise that the Horstmann timer on and off times can be adjusted in 15min steps between the hours of 23.30 and 09.00, but you need to take the cover off to do it - and obviously turn off the power! The instructions are easily found on the web.

Slightly puzzled by your reference to 'two readings' on the electricity bill. Does that mean two meter readings, as in a normal (day) reading and a night time reading? If so it should be possible to get put on dual tariff billing, even if not currently.
 

Gasmk1

Gas Engineer
Messages
1,854
the boiler light may not come on as it isn't connected to a boiler I suspect that the heating is form a central boiler or the Olson being a thermal store, so so long as that is hot you should get heating, the rossweiner is a meter for when you use the heating. as is stated in the Olson instruction the unit is hot water only
 
Messages
152
Hi Whatsthenews
It's looking more as if there's a central boiler (prob gas) that feeds all the flats UFH, and that's the reason for the Rossweiner kWh meter. The Elson is likely just providing hot water?
Worth asking a resident if they get heating bills from the management company!
 

snowhead

Esteemed
Plumber
Messages
3,388
Is the heating stated as being inclusive with the rent or to be charged per units used (on the Rossweiner meter as above posts)?
 
Messages
78
Whilst not being able to help with the bulk of your queries, I can advise that the Horstmann timer on and off times can be adjusted in 15min steps between the hours of 23.30 and 09.00, but you need to take the cover off to do it - and obviously turn off the power! The instructions are easily found on the web.

Slightly puzzled by your reference to 'two readings' on the electricity bill. Does that mean two meter readings, as in a normal (day) reading and a night time reading? If so it should be possible to get put on dual tariff billing, even if not currently.
Thanks so much. We'll have a look. The 2 readings I was referring to were start and end of the billing period. Wish there was a cheaper and regular rate showing on there. Terrified the bills are going to be sky high. especially as we don't really understand it! He's furloughed BA cabin crew. Their basic is pathetic.
 
Messages
78
Thanks for all the help
Cheers. Yes, didn't think it was anything we needed to be concerned with, but I like to know what things are and have some idea of what they do. Knowledge is power. I'll take a look at the link.
the boiler light may not come on as it isn't connected to a boiler I suspect that the heating is form a central boiler or the Olson being a thermal store, so so long as that is hot you should get heating, the rossweiner is a meter for when you use the heating. as is stated in the Olson instruction the unit is hot water only
Yes, pretty sure there's no boiler and the Olson is a thermal store for the UFH. When the stat calls for heat, a pipe on the top of the Olson is very hot, whilst another is cold. It also makes a gurgling sound when it first comes on?
The pipes run up the left and right hand walls but are above the ceiling overhead so can't see what goes where. There's an uninsulated copper pipe going into the back of the Olson low down, which I assume is the mains supply as the stop cock is on this pipe.
Can't quite remember where they were , but I think I ID'd the DHW pipe heading off through the left hand wall, which is where the bathroom and kitchen are.
Hi Whatsthenews
It's looking more as if there's a central boiler (prob gas) that feeds all the flats UFH, and that's the reason for the Rossweiner kWh meter. The Elson is likely just providing hot water?
Worth asking a resident if they get heating bills from the management company!
There's no gas in the building. The electricity bill that arrived for Dec-Jan was direct from SSE.
Is the heating stated as being inclusive with the rent or to be charged per units used (on the Rossweiner meter as above posts)?
No, the heating isn't included. It isn't a housing association/council owned block. It was built in 2015.
 
Messages
78
Whilst not being able to help with the bulk of your queries, I can advise that the Horstmann timer on and off times can be adjusted in 15min steps between the hours of 23.30 and 09.00, but you need to take the cover off to do it - and obviously turn off the power! The instructions are easily found on the web.

Slightly puzzled by your reference to 'two readings' on the electricity bill. Does that mean two meter readings, as in a normal (day) reading and a night time reading? If so it should be possible to get put on dual tariff billing, even if not currently.
Update on the functioning of the timer. We buzzed it round to midnight and through to 9am.
The indicator light "timed" didn't come when the clock got to 0000hrs, in fact it didn't come on until the clock reached 5am, when it stayed on until it reached 9am. On shining a light onto the timer, the background of the midnight to 03.30 time period is red, whilst the background for the 0500-0900 is blue. Any ideas?
Further reading on the Continental room thermostat mentions that the 3 settings (timed,day and night) will work when there's a Continental Heatmax UFH NSB timer. Looking at an image of a set up , it appears that they have a timer beside f. So we don't have one, therefore presumably none of the settings on the room stats will work. That would appear to be the case as we left the rooms stat on about 17 on "timed" mode overnight and at 8am the underfloor heating had definitely been on.


The boiler light does indeed come on along with the pump light when the stat call for heat.
 
Messages
152
On shining a light onto the timer, the background of the midnight to 03.30 time period is red, whilst the background for the 0500-0900 is blue. Any ideas?
The red (orange?) sector is supposed to indicate the position of the "on" cam, and the blue the "off" cam.
The link to the instructions is in post #3. It sounds like the "on" cam is actually at 5am, but I don't know why the red sector is not showing that - it might become clearer if you tried out the procedure for adjusting them.
But if not currently on an E7 tariff, the present settings might be perfectly serviceable for the moment.
A very rough bit of mental arithmetic suggests if you leave it as is, it could clock up around the monthly amount you spoke of in the first post (I could be wrong!), obviously dependent on UFH usage.
 
Last edited:
Messages
78
The red (orange?) sector is supposed to indicate the position of the "on" cam, and the blue the "off" cam.
The link to the instructions is in post #3. It sounds like the "on" cam is actually at 5am, but I don't know why the red sector is not showing that - it might become clearer if you tried out the procedure for adjusting them.
But if not currently on an E7 tariff, the present settings might be perfectly serviceable for the moment.
A very rough bit of mental arithmetic suggests if you leave it as is, it could clock up around the monthly amount you spoke of in the first post (I could be wrong!), obviously dependent on UFH usage.
Thanks again. Yes, that's what I understood from the instructions, so I was rather baffled. As you say, if there's no E7 then it's neither here nor there.
I also came to the same calculation. You'd think the estimated bill would be based on something as I believe they've been the supplier for several years.
Gasmk1, do you have anything to add, especially since the UFH doesn't seem to have a timer?
 

Reply to Help us understand how this UFH system works please! in the Water Underfloor Heating Installations area at PlumbersForums.net

New Posts Threads Members

Top