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when and why did plumbers who work on heating systems decide they didn’t want to be called plumbers?
- Thread starter OffshoreGas
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Discuss Why aren’t plumbers plumbers any more? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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A
Aire
Maybe as a way to seperate gas registered plumbers from non gas registered plumbers? You do find some gas engineers are just that, great at boiler and heating installs but don't have a clue when it comes to the rest of the plumbing in the house.
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Maybe so Craig,
That’s kind of my experience with competence, heating or gas engineer immediately makes me think career change cowboy. To me the craft is in pipework and installation.
That’s kind of my experience with competence, heating or gas engineer immediately makes me think career change cowboy. To me the craft is in pipework and installation.
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I worked solely on heating systems the company I worked for had me down as a heating engineer. I did a 4 year apprenticeship in plumbing as well. I have never changed career but the company that I worked for only covered heating so that is why I was called a heating engineer.
I thought you were one of those that wanted to be a career change cowboys?
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From our point of view - we have been established a very long time and have always used the title Plumbing and Heating Engineers - We are more than competent and experienced in the design, specification, installation and commissioning of all types of Heating and Hot water systems in all manner and all sizes of building, amongst a myriad of other related services.
There may be unworthy users of the title but we originals should never be confused with them under any circumstances.
There may be unworthy users of the title but we originals should never be confused with them under any circumstances.
S
Sharp Point
Yes, because designing and calculating pipework for a bog basin bath and kitchen sink is rocket science compared to calculating heating, gas pipework..... oh and pump sizing.
A
Aire
You'd be surprised, and your response is a typical gas engineer response to domestic plumbing.Yes, because designing and calculating pipework for a bog basin bath and kitchen sink is rocket science compared to calculating heating, gas pipework... oh and pump sizing.
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Sharp Point
S
Sharp Point
You is funny Craig
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I always worked on both plumbing and heating, but bulk of my work was full heating installs or heating system related work.
Reason why I always called myself a Heating Engineer is because I wasn’t going to allow cowboys to class themselves as better than me.
When a customer asks me am I heating guy/engineer, or just a plumber, I am hardly going to undersell myself.
Why should we use a lowly job description title like a plumber?
(Some people still think of a plumber as one of the least educated professions.)
Reason why I always called myself a Heating Engineer is because I wasn’t going to allow cowboys to class themselves as better than me.
When a customer asks me am I heating guy/engineer, or just a plumber, I am hardly going to undersell myself.
Why should we use a lowly job description title like a plumber?
(Some people still think of a plumber as one of the least educated professions.)
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By discipline I've served and instrumentation apprenticeship, whilst working as an instrument technician I obtained a degree in electrical and control engineering going on to become a instrument/controls engineer. After 10 years designing, installing and commissioning systems in oil/gas/chemical/power industries I now largely work as a consultant/troubleshooter.
I'm in the process of setting up a pluming/heating company as the tales of woe from friends and family lead me to believe there is a big skills shortage locally. I guess you could call it being a career change cowboy but I'd happily go head to head with any gas safe "heating engineer" fixing/designing domestic heating systems.
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Yes, because designing and calculating pipework for a bog basin bath and kitchen sink is rocket science compared to calculating heating, gas pipework... oh and pump sizing.
Sizing pipes based on look up tables/pumps on discharge curves is hardly rocket surgery.
Having trained people on behalf of various companies I'd be fairly confident I could teach a lay person of average intelligence to fault find the electrical/control side of a domestic heating system in one to two days.
On the other hand you could probably train a person to bend pipe and solder in a similar time but it would take them months if not years of practice to be ale to do it to a reasonable standard.
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Sharp Point
I’m sure you could, but whilst they’re in comfortable surroundings sucking on the teachers teet and everything is fresh.... the world is there oyster. Now try doing the same after a hard days slog, in a smoke filled house and sixty four kids running about and screaming, whilst mum n dad are arguing.
And with no data to determine pin out’s on controls
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Sharp Point
And that’s not quite true neither, you’ve got to be able to work out the first answer to be able the twelfth. It’s not a five minute task, working out a pump size.
And that was a tongue in cheek reply, but I’m sure you get what I mean.
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If your that good and that competent why are you here asking questions surely you should be building your new bus I was that will beat british gas and Pimlico.
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I don't think that's fair as we never stop learning and there is nothing wrong with asking your peers a question even if you think you already know the answer.
S
Sharp Point
And do you really think the trade is just about heating controls?
So you maybe a whizz with a multimeter! How do you know the fault is with the control? What experience do you have to eliminate that the fault doesn’t lay in the water side of things of a heating system.
He quite obviously thinks himself better than us, he seems to think someone who calls themselves a heating engineer a career change cowboy yet he is planning to change career himself he is also asking the very same "cowboys" that he seems to think he knows more than and is already better than questions about the job that he can apparently teach someone in a day.
Not sure what part of the country he works in but round me it's a very small plumb industry and people who are quite frankly arrogant do not last very long.
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Well, since you put it like that you maybe have a valid point there. Personally I have always been rather proud to call myself a plumber. Just mentioning the fact usually results in a flurry of requests for work to be done too. I do very little plumbing work outside of my day to day job but it's nice to know it's there if I need it.
I'm certainly not ashamed to be a plumber and happily tell people who ask.
I'm certainly not ashamed to be a plumber and happily tell people who ask.
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In the world outside heating systems the term controls covers everything from PCB's and controllers, to pumps, heaters/burners, actuators and valves. Heating systems are simple example of what instrument technicians routinely work on.
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There are trades and there are crafts, I'd certainly say plumbing is the latter. In these days when most people cant fix a flat tire you should be proud of having a great skill like that.
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Where have I said I'm better than anyone? I'm simply asking why those with gas qualifications look down on those without?
I am quite happy to call myself a plumber as well even though I do oil,gas and Lpg as well. I trained for 4 years on pants money and have since worked hard to make myself the best I can be.
I get what you say about always learning as that is part of the reason I'm on here to get other people's views and in turn I pass some of my knowledge on as well.
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We all still ask questions
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Sharp Point
Pure and simple elitism, a bit like the way your putting yourself across. Oh ‘ I’m degree trained and because of what I do.... I’ll Sod doing domestic stuff.
A
Aire
They don't. It's probably just you.
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Sharp Point
Sort of like what you said about plumbers then
Unfortunately Craig, I’m capable of doing plumbing heating and gas. I can be tracing a gas leak in the morning, changing a mid position valve after lunch and finish off unblocking a loo getting covered in Rubbish and the following day... fitting a bathroom.
I’m like a lot on here, who are multi trained.
I can be a plumbing snob one minute and gas snob the next. I think there’s some on here like yourself.. just have an inferiority complex and see the gas safe/ Oftec as the golden chalice.
I’ve earned my stripes and need to prove nothing.
That we do. But I wouldn't have the cheek to call someone a cowboy that I've just asked questions to. I also wouldn't have the cheek to say I could teach someone a job in a day what some of us have spent years training and retraining to do.
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Sharp Point
Well said millsy.
I don’t think you’re doing yourself any favours belittling people and then when you get a reply you don’t like (but must have thought you’d get) you state all your qualifications and experience. As much as to say “I’m better than you so don’t question me”.
I’m one of those career change cowboys but maybe I should have just gone and signed on the dole and let people like you pay me to live.
Or maybe your just trying to get your number of posts up. This ain’t a rant, just a measured reply.
I’m one of those career change cowboys but maybe I should have just gone and signed on the dole and let people like you pay me to live.
Or maybe your just trying to get your number of posts up. This ain’t a rant, just a measured reply.
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You asked if I considered myself a CCC, I just pointed out it’s not really a career change. Heating is a very small subset of instrument technicians work on on a daily basis without making such a huge song and dance about it.
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I’m simply asking why there’s so much snobbery/elitism in what’s essentially one trade. Which seems especially strange given it takes years to get to be competent plumber yet you can be qualified as gas safe with 8 weeks training.
A
Aire
Not entirely sure what you mean by this.
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I’ve trained dozens if not hundreds of people over the years to maintain/fault find on systems of of similar levels of complexity to a domestic heating system in a few days. On the other hand I’ve never seen anyone turn out decent pipework that’s done a 2 day course. If you’re fitting a bathroom say there are 100 skills you need to master that takes years.
No where did I say that all people working on gas systems were cowboys. Just that I aspirate the term “heating engineer” much more with someone in a Homeserv t-shirt that was working in a sports shop 3 weeks ago much more than a 3rd generation with 20 years of experience.
W
Welder
Personally I've come across quite a few gas people who see wet plumbing as something 'below' them. They are the kind of people I refuse to associate with.
In a discussion not too long ago, a Twatter friend and I spent some time jotting down the 'difference' between these so called Gas Engineers, wet plumbers and real plumbers.
It turned out that the snobbery was mostly associated with people not too long in our industry. People who were swayed by the BS advertising of courses and promises of huge sums of money. Interestingly we also found those same people were also more likely to be the ones ripping folk off!
What we found was that those people had a very limited knowledge of plumbing as they had no interest in it. Their gas knowledge seemed very high but some had little idea of system design.
Wet plumbers on the other hand generally had very very wide knowledge but it was no where near as specialised until you got to sad s0ds like me and say taps or shower systems.
Then we go to what we termed real plumbers. The guys and gals who took teh time & trouble to (annoyingly) learn it all. They tended to enjoy fault finding, the more challenging jobs, solving problems. These people were the sages, the thinkers the more considered ones. The people who, no matter what, knew they would NEVER know it all.
Fact is, we all come under the huge umbrella of Plumbing. But just like say food the variation and passion for the variant is huge and deep. Me, I'd never eat Tofu again cos its sh1te. Some people love it tho. Does that make 'em a bad person? No it doesn't it just goes to show we is all different and should cut one another a little more slack more often rather than jump down one anothers throats.
Happt Easter!
In a discussion not too long ago, a Twatter friend and I spent some time jotting down the 'difference' between these so called Gas Engineers, wet plumbers and real plumbers.
It turned out that the snobbery was mostly associated with people not too long in our industry. People who were swayed by the BS advertising of courses and promises of huge sums of money. Interestingly we also found those same people were also more likely to be the ones ripping folk off!
What we found was that those people had a very limited knowledge of plumbing as they had no interest in it. Their gas knowledge seemed very high but some had little idea of system design.
Wet plumbers on the other hand generally had very very wide knowledge but it was no where near as specialised until you got to sad s0ds like me and say taps or shower systems.
Then we go to what we termed real plumbers. The guys and gals who took teh time & trouble to (annoyingly) learn it all. They tended to enjoy fault finding, the more challenging jobs, solving problems. These people were the sages, the thinkers the more considered ones. The people who, no matter what, knew they would NEVER know it all.
Fact is, we all come under the huge umbrella of Plumbing. But just like say food the variation and passion for the variant is huge and deep. Me, I'd never eat Tofu again cos its sh1te. Some people love it tho. Does that make 'em a bad person? No it doesn't it just goes to show we is all different and should cut one another a little more slack more often rather than jump down one anothers throats.
Happt Easter!
My tuppence-
I always figured a hearing engineer worked heating systems (and was therefore usually GS refistered).
By default, a plumber worked on everything else the heating engineer did not.
Heating engineers earn more than plumbers ( usually) because of the increased liabilities (and I did not say skill!).
The definitions get muddled as more people work on both. Fit a boiler? Chances are the homeowner will call you when their taps are leaking.
I always figured a hearing engineer worked heating systems (and was therefore usually GS refistered).
By default, a plumber worked on everything else the heating engineer did not.
Heating engineers earn more than plumbers ( usually) because of the increased liabilities (and I did not say skill!).
The definitions get muddled as more people work on both. Fit a boiler? Chances are the homeowner will call you when their taps are leaking.
B
Burger
Roy Treloar doesn’t differentiate himself too much. I have a book of his called plumbing, which has sections on plumbing, wet central heating, gas, unvented cylinders etc, even a small section on electrics. I think people who were writing their own job description, or just wanted to be different, possibly came up with the different name so they could earn more money. I have people I work with who were just plumbers, now calling themselves a gas engineer because they see it as superior.
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I knew a plumber who once said he was a bathroom designer to a guy in the pub my 2 cents is i will always say I'm a heating engineer to a girl i fancy and mostly a plumber to anyone else. I agree, i do new builds so we do everything in house in regards to gas, plumbing, lead, heating from 1st fix to 2nd and i would say most of us just call ourselves plumbers.
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i trained with British gas as an apprentice gas fitter started 1973, during my apprenticeship we had electrical training and after all fitters had the same update to their training we were then re-classified as gas engineers. as i worked mostly on boilers and heating as most guys who left british gas did i adopted the gas heating engineer name as its easier to relay to customers. i dont think i am superior to plumbers as there is work they can do i cant do and vice versa. the majority of plumbing works never interested me the art of drainage and gutters i leave to them in the know but all other plumbing work i can do. the major difference between gas/heating engineers and plumbers is that the gas/heating engineer probably will carry out a lot more boiler breakdowns. plus not every plumber is gas safe registered.
Unless, of course, you are a "proper" gas service engineer, with C&G and 3/4 year proper apprenticeship to prove it.
.
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0r 4 year apprenticeship city and guild, intermediate and final gas utilisation, institute of fuel diploma and level 3 Nvq
So,
Gas Plumbers?
Plumbing Engineers?
Gas Plumbers?
From the OED's definition of an engineer-
"A person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures"
Does someone who is GS maintain a 'heat engine'? This might be stretching the definition but...does a plumber meet any of the definitions of an engineer?
[Lights fuse and retreats to a safe distance]
Gas Plumbers?
Plumbing Engineers?
Gas Plumbers?
From the OED's definition of an engineer-
"A person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures"
Does someone who is GS maintain a 'heat engine'? This might be stretching the definition but...does a plumber meet any of the definitions of an engineer?
[Lights fuse and retreats to a safe distance]
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Pushfit and DIY has not the plumbing industry any favours. Public think it's easy....
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Engineer is one of the most abused terms In the English language. In Germany for example it’s a protected title in the same way you can’t just call yourself Lord/Lady/Reverend in the U.K. It’s the same in America where there is a lot more respect for the term technician.
I had a guy knock on my door when we moved into a new house and introduce himself at a “clear wall maintenance engineer” after a brief pause he had to explain he was actually a window cleaner.
Engineer seems to have been adopted in a lot of situations simply to justify higher day rates.
It’s no different to a nurse and a doctor, one is not better than the other but generally neither is qualified to use use the others title.
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Fittings in general becoming very cheap probably hasn’t done plumbing any favours. It seems a lot more common these days to see an elbow where you may well have seen a pulled bend 20 years ago. Part of the throwaway society we live in today I guess.
Pardon?
The trade of plumbing originates from the Latin and chemical symbol for lead. There can't be many on here that have ever wiped a joint with moleskin. I was apprenticed as a coppersmith, my first test piece was to make a ball float from scratch, soft soldering the seams with irons. we made scotch joints and saddles from 2 " copper filled with resin, bent with 6' iron bars with the pipe chocked on a slab with wooden wedges. I learnt silver soldering and brazing, and in my trade test I manufactured a complicated 2" pipe between flanges to a tolerance that allowed only one test fitting. I served as a Royal Naval Artificer, and subsequently worked for 10 years in building services, I ply my trade in property maintenance now, and accept work involving plumbing, but never call myself a plumber, because I didn't serve the time. You earn the right to call yourself a plumber, you earn the right, and pay for it to become GSR. Engineer is a professional title and usually is bestowed upon those who have qualified to become members of an institution (mine was I Plant E until I lapsed it). Being multi skilled is not a crime as long as one does not profess to be that which he isn't
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