Bit harsh peteheat. implying i have no pride in trade or self mate. its all new to me. the only thing i lack is knowledge. This is the reason i posted the question and why the group is here is it not. i want to be the best i can and take pride in my work and myself. I'm guilty of being too soft with people by nature and going low on price but as i'm just starting out i want that to stop. i've studied hard this last two years and will continue to do so while i am doing the job. and its that realisation when i'm stood there talking to a customer who wants it for peanuts that promted the question. I also believe that offering silly prices shows a lack of respect to the likes of you guys who have studied and worked hard.