Customer claiming against you after 6 years!

[Rovers21]

I did a job in augest 2012 and last week received a letter in the post off there solicitor saying I was liable for a compression fitting leaking and causing some damage in augest 2018! The company I had then stopped trading in March 2015 as I went limited. Does anyone know where I stand etc?

 

[bacon_sandwich]

I would contact your insurance co you used in 2012 and see what they say. Not sure what your status was in 2012 but if sole trader, then i guess they need to sue you personally rather than the Ltd company as if it did not exist in 2012 then its not connected as such.

 

[AMGasServices]

I did think that was possible 6 years is a bit extreme.

Did you have public liability insurance at the time ?

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Your liability ends after the term of your warranty has expired. How does this customer know that the compression fitting hasn't been tampered with by someone else working on it or near it?
In any case, best seek advice from a lawyer, most first visits are free, or go see your local Citizens Advice.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

I dont think you can just say there is no liability after warranty has expired, the client would have to prove it was fitted incorrectly in the first place or defected materials. It is reasonable for plumbing joints to last longer than one year, if thats your warranty, and the customer will use that angle to get you to pay for consequential loss, it sounds like a punt at your insurance company to see what they can get.

 

[Best]

Firstly, the compression fitting would have had to been done wrong in 2012.
Not fully tightened, or olive not compressed, or olive not full on pipe.
So how do they come to the opinion it was installed wrong?
Secondly, 6 years has passed and I assume you don’t give 6 year + warranties.
I would take some legal advice, but I would also play the customer along with questions, should you reply.
Has someone been moving or tampering with the pipework in periods during that 6 years, would be one question.
I might add that compression joints are not guaranteed for long life by the manufacturer, nor you.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

I dont think you can just say there is no liability after warranty has expired, the client would have to prove it was fitted incorrectly in the first place or defected materials. It is reasonable for plumbing joints to last longer than one year, if thats your warranty, and the customer will use that angle to get you to pay for consequential loss, it sounds like a punt at your insurance company to see what they can get.

There is no liability to the installer after the warranty has expired. If there was, then we'd all be liable for every fitting and appliance on every job going back years. Furthermore if work has been done on your pipework by another plumber which will happen over time if a new tap is needing installed or additions to a bathroom are required, then again you are not liable for the original pipework after someone else has worked on it as technically it's been tampered with.
Regardless the OP needs to seek professional legal advice from either a lawyer or Citizens Advice as I doubt if anyone on this forum is qualified to do so.

 

[townfanjon]

Unbelievable this , how can this be proved ? , it cant.
Fittings leak , fitting may have been slackened off , something may have stressed the pipe . Etc etc .
“Shakes his head “

 

[Rovers21]

I did have public liability at the time. I’m now off the tools anyway my knees where giving up on me so I got out before it was to late. I’ll speak to a lawyer tomorrow see what they have to say, just think after 6 years it’s a bit excessive . Joints could easily have been knocked, engineers could have worked on the property after and dislodged parts etc

 

[Best]

I can just hear a judge asking the customer could they prove that in 6 years the pipe was not moved by someone or by other events.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Just as a footnote to warranty, I pulled up Poofix over the one year warranty given to their soldered fittings. One year warranty for a soldered fitting?!!! Apparently the one year is correct. Must be extremely crap fittings!

 

[Best]

Maybe ask them to send you photos of the joint and surrounding area.
Could work out in your favour.
Remember, at the moment they might assume the possibility that you will be very accommodating and conform to their requests, so keep it pleasant and see what info you can get from them.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

As I got older, I got grumpier, so me being accommodating and conforming to their requests, would be to tell them to go f**k themselves.

 

[Rovers21]

I will do. I’ll speak to my lawyer tomorrow and leave it with the professionals... the company doesn’t even exist now. Anything could have knocked it especially if it was in a cupboard.

 

[townfanjon]

Just get this on judge Rinder , he will tell em to fec off

 

[townfanjon]

I will do. I’ll speak to my lawyer tomorrow and leave it with the professionals... the company doesn’t even exist now. Anything could have knocked it especially if it was in a cupboard.

Please keep us all informed

 

[Rovers21]

Just get this on judge Rinder , he will tell em to fec off

Haha the letter cane from there solicitor so imagine writing a letter just saying *** off ha

 

[townfanjon]

Haha the letter cane from there solicitor so imagine writing a letter just saying *** off ha

I hope I am right for your sake but I think its just a solicitors letter trying it on to worry you , the same as we would send a non - paying customer.

 

[Best]

As I got older, I got grumpier, so me being accommodating and conforming to their requests, would be to tell them to go f**k themselves.

Most of us also would. I used to be too gentle natured, but have gotten less tolerant to being bullied.
But best to keep communications to your advantage.
Beat them with pleasant words.

 

[Rovers21]

Yea I will I’ll just let a solicitor sorted, if it was a dodgy compression fitting or installed correctly I’m sure it would never have lasted 6 months not 6 years

 

[snowhead]

To the O.P.
Do not communicate directly with either the Customer or their Solicitor.
Leave it to your Solicitor, or your insurance company to do the communications.

 

[Best]

Yea I will I’ll just let a solicitor sorted, if it was a dodgy compression fitting or installed correctly I’m sure it would never have lasted 6 months not 6 years

Citizens Advice would be free.
If you find out where you stand in law, then you can reply with your own letter, no need for the expense of a solicitors letter. Just take care to not admit responsibility

 

[Rovers21]

I will leave it to a solicitor, I’m out off the trade now anyway and company closed so don’t know how I stand with it being closed etc

 

[Welder]

Your liability ends after the term of your warranty has expired.

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Your liability extends way beyond that. How do I know? Because I've been an expert witness against clots who thought they'd take the pi55 put of customers in that way for cr4p installs of showers.

As suggested, speak to your legal rep 1st.
I completely agree it's flying a kite as, I would have thought, there is no way they can prove beyond 'on the balance of probability' i.e. 51% that it was your work or responsibility that the thing failed. Far too many variables.

As already seen on this forum, they should also have both informed you and given you opportunity to correct if it were appropriate.

 

[Best]

To the O.P.
Do not communicate directly with either the Customer or their Solicitor.
Leave it to your Solicitor, or your insurance company to do the communications.

You are probably right to say use professionals, but some free legal advice and a reply letter to the customers solicitor should be easy.
It is not that difficult to reply with a letter which keeps yourself uncommitted.
Solicitors are only to scare people and I treat scurrilous letters with contempt.
Could end up spending more money to solicitors.

 

[Rovers21]

I’d ratger spend possibly 200/300 initially on a solicitor to make sure it’s all done properly etc

 

[Best]

I’d ratger spend possibly 200/300 initially on a solicitor to make sure it’s all done properly etc

And you probably will.

Did they say any amount for damage?

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Let me get this, now if a shower valve fails after being in service for 6 years, or a toilet fill valve fails after being in service for 6 years, you are saying Yorkshire Dave that the installer is responsible for them? Rubbish, liability ends with the warranty given or what's the point in giving warranties in the first place?
My tv is now 8 years old, think I'll claim for a new one from the company that plugged it in to my wall socket 8 years ago.

 

[Rovers21]

And you probably will.

Did they say any amount for damage?

10-15k, surely they would just go through there home insurance,

 

[Best]

10-15k, surely they would just go through there home insurance,

Not saying this happened, but their home insurance would look for somebody else’s insurance (yours) to pay up so to avoid them paying out.
Loss adjusters job is partly to find an excuse not to pay.
That’s if they had home insurance.

If you were called out to a leaking compression joint done 6 years ago by another plumber, - could you say for sure it was the plumbers fault at time of install?
Only if the olive was on edge of pipe, or one of the pipes was installed at a ridiculous angle to the fitting, etc.
I really think the customer is reaching too far

 

[Murdoch]

Why isn’t the customer claiming off their insurance company ?

 

[Welder]

Let me get this, now if a shower valve fails after being in service for 6 years, or a toilet fill valve fails after being in service for 6 years, you are saying Yorkshire Dave that the installer is responsible for them? Rubbish, liability ends with the warranty given or what's the point in giving warranties in the first place?
My tv is now 8 years old, think I'll claim for a new one from the company that plugged it in to my wall socket 8 years ago.

Oh dear. Might I respectfully suggest you read what's written and not extrapolate to daft conclusions.

I did not say it was about product failure at all. They are likely going to be coming at this from the point of view of a duty of care during the install. If anything is installed in such a manner that it is unprofessional or installed in a manner that goes against manufacturers instructions (unless those instructions can be demonstrated to be contrary to usual or formal standards) then you remain liable until what a judge would describe as a reasonable term has elapsed. That term is not fixed. It depends entirely on what is being discussed.

However, there is a formal and well defined process these scroats need to follow to be even considered in a court of law. This is why I do not believe there is anything to answer here. That said, I am neither a solicitor nor a lawyer so it is well worth the OP speaking to one who specialises in this aspect of the law rather than a generalist.

 

[townfanjon]

I will leave it to a solicitor, I’m out off the trade now anyway and company closed so don’t know how I stand with it being closed etc

Surely theres no claim on this now .

 

[Rovers21]

Surely theres no claim on this now .

That’s what I would have fort especially when the company doesn’t even exist now and isn’t trading. How doncompanys get away with changing names every year etc

 

[Phil]

What was the original job? Can you remember?
Were you worried over a particular fitting at the time?

 

[Rovers21]

It was a barn conversion that we did for a contractor. Not been told where the fitting is just that it was on a compression on a cold main, so possibly the stop tap. Which could have been turned off and then bashed etc

 

[Ric2013]

If it was a limited company, then my understanding is that your personal liability for that company's performance is limited, usually to £10. The point is that the company ceased trading and is not you as an individual, so you need to be very careful not to portray yourself as still connected to the company (in spite of the fact that you were the owner back then). So do get proper advice on what not to say or write.

EDIT Just re-read the opening post. When the OP said 'the company ceased trading', I read that to mean it was a limited company. Not sure, on re-reading, if that was the case at all!

Back to liability in general, you are responsible for carrying out the work with due skill and care, and to hide behind the wording of a warranty will not help in court. The warranty is in addition to statutory rights and those rights cannot be deleted by a contract. In practice, firms often do try to hide behind warranty terms and fob people off, but they cannot get away with this if it goes to court.

In practical terms, though, I'd like to know how this customer intends to prove that the failure of the joint is somehow your fault after all this time. I think they will try to push you for an out-of-court settlement because I expect if you dig your heels in and refuse to give one, then they will probably lose the case and leave with nothing.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

There is no liability to the installer after the warranty has expired. If there was, then we'd all be liable for every fitting and appliance on every job going back years. Furthermore if work has been done on your pipework by another plumber which will happen over time if a new tap is needing installed or additions to a bathroom are required, then again you are not liable for the original pipework after someone else has worked on it as technically it's been tampered with.
Regardless the OP needs to seek professional legal advice from either a lawyer or Citizens Advice as I doubt if anyone on this forum is qualified to do so.

I am an adviser for CAB, yes, its true, there are people here that have a wealth of experience and knowledge. I advise the OP to contact their nearest CAB, it wont be far away, but the general process is that if you receive such a claim, you hand it to your insurance company, who have the skills and resources to determine its merit, generally plumbers dont know the law..... lol

 

[bacon_sandwich]

That’s what I would have fort especially when the company doesn’t even exist now and isn’t trading. How doncompanys get away with changing names every year etc

Just because a company is not trading does not mean it is free from all liabilities from the past. Dont forget a company is just a bunch of directors or owners. You have not stated the status of the original company. Dont poo poo this away, it could be a real threat

 

[Ric2013]

Just because a company is not trading does not mean it is free from all liabilities from the past. Dont forget a company is just a bunch of directors or owners. You have not stated the status of the original company. Dont poo poo this away, it could be a real threat

That is a fair point well made.

 

[Rovers21]

The company at the time was a sole trader, then I went to a new limited company when I purchased a house etc

 

[bacon_sandwich]

OK, as a sole trader, the liability is with you personally. As you can imagine its not much different to owing the gov tax, it carries on as a liability even if you decide to close the company. You can fight it / or ignore it and see if they do take it towards a court (dont ignore court documents) but costs mount up in the process, as mentioned dig out your insurance and hand it over to them. They may well ignore it as well, until court docs are filed, but thats at their cost and risk.
Good Luck

 

[Rovers21]

Cheers don’t don’t think my insurance from 2012 would cover it and with me being out off the industry now then not sure what happens. Will be emailing a couple of Solicitors’s today to see what they say.

 

[fezster]

A compression fitting failing after 6 years will be very difficult to prove. I would say the letter is speculative, at best, and probably hoping you will settle with them before it goes any further.

Engaging a solicitor is the best course of action, but you may be better off waiting to see if they escalate it any further before spending any money on one. If you have legal protection on your home insurance, it may be worth checking to see if they will assist in any way (though probably not for a matter related to your profession - worth checking though). If and when they issue court proceedings, I would spend any significant amount of money on legal representation.

I believe small claims are limited to £10,000 using MCOL so if their claim exceeds that, they will no doubt incur fees to pursue this. Chances are they are using their home insurance, so the insurance company would have to make a reasonable judgement on whether it is worth them spending money on pursuing this claim - they'll probably decide it is not.

 

[Rovers21]

Spoke to a solicitor today got to send the letter across to them. They said it would be very hard for them to prove after 6 years that it was my fault, and if the system has been worked on after the Blame could lie elsewhere. They reckon there just trying to scare me

 

[Deleted member 96286]

That said, I am neither a solicitor nor a lawyer so it is well worth the OP speaking to one who specialises in this aspect of the law rather than a generalist.

This is what I said in my two posts above. The OP needs to seek the advice of a legal professional or his local Citizens Advice as I doubt anyone on a plumbing forum is qualified to do so.
Calm down whoever you are. Your posts are aggressive and way over the top on what is supposed to be a friendly forum

 

[rpm]

Calm down whoever you are. Your posts are aggressive and way over the top on what is supposed to be a friendly forum

You seemed happy to dish it out on a previous thread Cailean so can`t have it both ways I`m afraid.
Last thing we want to see is handbags at dawn however there will always be disagreements on open forums regardless of the topic.

 

[snowhead]

Just in case they're needed;

 

[Deleted member 96286]

You seemed happy to dish it out on a previous thread Cailean so can`t have it both ways I`m afraid.

The guy jumped on my post first on another thread previously if you remember and as far as I'm concerned the matter is closed and I'll continue to offer helpful advice to anyone that may find it useful, as this is what we're here for.

 

[Ric2013]

In fairness Cailean, Dave said much what I would have said, even if he did say it less diplomatically. Your post does read as if you assumed the issue was about product failure, and your comment that liability ends with the warranty is helpful, useful, and wrong. Dave was right to pull you up on a point of fact.

Look up the consumer rights act and the former sale of goods act and you will see that a warranty does not end liability.

I know this for a fact as I had to get Trading Standards involved when I, as a consumer, bought a replacement kettle for my own electric shower direct from Triton. Triton initially said it was unfortunate that it only lasted 4 months, but the warranty was only for 90 days so I could get knotted, basically. Trading Standards took a very dim view of this.