Plumber problems - need advice please

[Dragonfly]

Hi Everyone

This is my first post here and I hope to hear from some of the experienced plumbers or anyone else in general that has had an issue with plumbing.

In October 2018 a plumber came to install full central heating and a unventes cylinder which was zoned to two floors (Basement and Ground floor zone 1 & First and 2nd floor zone 2)

The property was undergoing complete renovation from scratch and it wasn't until October 2019 that I actually moved into the property.

The Boiler was then serviced by the installer in December 2019, and it wasn't until approximately March or April 2020 when I noticed the problem.

When I woke up one morning I happened to put my hand on the bathroom radiator which was hot to the touch and upon checking the boiler, it was not fired up and the thermostat was also not showing as turned on.

I then reported this to the installer who at the time bluffed me into stating this could be the settings on the thermostat or boiler etc and he will come and check it when he is free to do so.

This was when we ended up with Covid lockdown so I didn't chase him up again until towards the end of the year as I had to isolate for 3 months due to vulnerability and rules for covid were quite strict in terms of allowing anyone to visit.

To cut a long story short, the installer after numerous requests eventually came out in August 2021 after I had obtained a report from Baxi which stated that there is no problem with the boiler, the divertor valves or any pipework visible above ground and that the likely issue is a poor connection below the floorboards.

The installer checked the 2nd floor and admitted that they have more than likely connected the return pipe from the last radiator into the return pipe of the invented cylinder and hence why water is actually flowing into the radiators in zone 2 when I have the timer on to heat up Hot water!

He agreed to rectify this problem at no cost to me and has now denied completing the work in the upper two floors and accused me of using another installer to complete part of the house.

This is all untrue and he is doing this as I have threatened court action.

I also get the sense that he has created a fake invoice to reflect that he has only done the bottom two floors.

Trading standards were informed of this and I have followed their advice and sent him two letters with a letter of action also which he still denies doing the work to the top section of the house.

How can I prove to the courts the work was done by him in full and that he agreed to rectify this, as this was a verbal agreement when he came to inspect it.
I have misplaced the actual invoice from the time he completed the install so only have proof of payments made via bank transfer in instalments along with a few text messages sent to him to come and rectify it.

Do I have a chance in court and what could I do to prove everything and show the courts how deceitful this person really is.

Sorry for the long winded first message.
Hope someone can advise the best way to deal with this as I will be submitting a money claim online soon.

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Was a boiler installed at all? You should have a building regulations certificate for the unvented cylinder, and one if a boiler was installed. If a boiler was installed, the benchmark should be filled in too.

 

[Dragonfly]

Was a boiler installed at all? You should have a building regulations certificate for the unvented cylinder, and one if a boiler was installed. If a boiler was installed, the benchmark should be filled in too.

Yes, boiler and tank installed and service record book was completed for first years service and building reg cert received.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

I’m no lawyer, but that could be decent evidence, I would say it’s usable.

 

[Dragonfly]

How does the reg cert and completed book prove the installer fitted the entire system with radiators? It only shows he serviced the boiler and tank. He is trying to make out he only zoned the bottom floors and that I used another installer to zone the top 2 floors and the other installer has created the problem.

It's easy for him to just write out another invoice on his headed sheet and put in the description he wants to show, and this is where somehow I need to expose his deceit.

How common is it for a boiler service to include checking if radiators are faulty as I don't know any that randomly start checking the radiators after a boiler service, something which he claims he did on the first service, which would seem odd, if according to him I only mentioned the problem with the radiators heating up AFTER 8 mths of the service

 

[gmartine]

Does the total in payments you made to him tally with the fake invoice he created?

 

[Dragonfly]

Does the total in payments you made to him tally with the fake invoice he created?

I have a record of making him bank transfer payments totalling £2000 with a further £475 towards materials. He claims I paid £2700 labour which I find odd but surely it looks better for me as it just shows I paid him a higher amount than originally paid.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Have a read of them. The benchmark may reveal if he’s fitted zone valves etc. It won’t show if the rads have been fitted.

 

[Dragonfly]

Have a read of them. The benchmark may reveal if he’s fitted zone valves etc. It won’t show if the rads have been fitted.

I will try post up a screenshot tomorrow and appreciate if can direct me to where I should be looking unless I can see it clearly somewhere.

 

[Dragonfly]

Here is a screenshot of his paperwork when he installed. What can be seen from this to identify he has done both zones please?

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Here is a screenshot of his paperwork when he installed. What can be seen from this to identify he has done both zones please?

It would appear that you can’t, my bad, sorry.

 

[Dragonfly]

It would appear that you can’t, my bad, sorry.

OK. No prob, I've submitted the money claims online just now and will hope for the nest and hope the county court judge can see through his deceit. He is going to lie to save his skin and I will speak the truth and won't drop to his level. Hopefully he slips up as liars can't remember what they said 10 minutes before. Wish me luck. Thanks for all your input to everyone and by all means if any other info can help me, please do respond here as il check it daily. Thanks

 

[gmartine]

Money claim for what, have you had some quotes to make good?

 

[Dragonfly]

Money claim for what, have you had some quotes to make good?

I had just one quote and that is the amount I have mentioned to him to either pay or correct the work at no cost to me as agreed when he did come round to inspect.

 

[Dragonfly]

Another quick question.
I have been advised the plumber will use his worker as a witness. Will the courts accept a witness statement from an employee as this will obviously be a bias statement and he won't want to lose his job of he didn't provide one for his employer. Do courts accept statements from employee in this situation or will they dismiss that?

Thanks

 

[gmartine]

Yes they'll accept the witness, how much is the rectification work?

 

[Chuck]

Do courts accept statements from employee in this situation or will they dismiss that?

They will consider what the witness has to say and will decide what weight to give it bearing in mind all the circumstances of the case and the other evidence available.

Only a real idiot lies under oath to help out their employer and judges are very experienced at detecting lies and inconsistencies. An employer who coerces an employee to lie to a court on their behalf is committing a serious criminal offence.

Anyway, you only have to prove your case 'on the balance of probability', which is bad news for your plumber.

 

[Dragonfly]

They will consider what the witness has to say and will decide what weight to give it bearing in mind all the circumstances of the case and the other evidence available.

Only a real idiot lies under oath to help out their employer and judges are very experienced at detecting lies and inconsistencies. An employer who coerces an employee to lie to a court on their behalf is committing a serious criminal offence.

Anyway, you only have to prove your case 'on the balance of probability', which is bad news for your plumber.

Thanks. It's been extremely stressful for me and my family what he is putting us through.
He must feel he has a good chance of winning this case based upon lies and it remains to be seen if truth prevails over falsehood now.

Just a shame, as gave him so many opportunities to just come and put it right, even sending messages to him through family and friends to make him see sense and realise his errors but I guess when your downright stubborn and arrogant then this is where we now end up at.

Will post updates as and when I can.

I really appreciate all your help from each and everyone here.

 

[gmartine]

If you don't mind divulging how much was the estimate for the corrective work?

 

[Dragonfly]

If you don't mind divulging how much was the estimate for the corrective work?

One chap quoted around £950 if pipework to be concealed back into the stud wall in bedroom which is where it was originally fed through into or could be less if clipped to the outside of the wall coming down ij bedroom corner but I wanted it concealed as looks neater.

 

[gmartine]

I do wish you well and the plumber concerned is clearly an arse but it's not a great deal of money in the grand scheme of things.

The nature of the fault and the fact that you can and have lived with it for all this time but more critically the amount of stress it has obviously caused you and your family, I'm not sure I would've bothered with this course of action.

Of course I hope you get the judgement but then considering his actions so far it might mean involving a recovery service.

 

[Dragonfly]

I do wish you well and the plumber concerned is clearly an arse but it's not a great deal of money in the grand scheme of things.

The nature of the fault and the fact that you can and have lived with it for all this time but more critically the amount of stress it has obviously caused you and your family, I'm not sure I would've bothered with this course of action.

Of course I hope you get the judgement but then considering his actions so far it might mean involving a recovery service.

I understand it may not seem a big amount for some but the fact that he admitted the problem and originally was prepared to to it at no cost as then started off a few weeks later messaging me that he had asked for £350 Labour plus materials as he had not done this work was all a lie. Despite this I requested him to come sort it as agreed prior and his arrogance and attitude has prompted me to go this far as otherwise he will think everyone just a bluff and I can do what I want to anyone's property with no repercussions. I am hopefully going to set an example of him and there has been so many people who have actually encouraged me to pursue it, as they are all aware of his arrogance and how rude he. Plus its a matter of principles, if its wrong just be a man and come sort it, not to forget that this could well be having an impact on my energy bills considering it may be taking too long to heat the water tank as half of it is running into radiators and we all are struggling with high energy costs and more to come.

 

[gmartine]

That's fine, I get it he's a sh*t however the law in this case isn't going to compensate you for how he treated you or made you feel.

As I said I wish you well in court but if you think this is going to teach him a lesson or "set an example" I very much doubt this will be his first or last affray or he'll be losing or has lost the sleep over this that you have. You're not going to be appealing to his conscience because if he had one he wouldn't have pulled the stunts he has or let it get this far.

The question to me isn't a moral one but one that I've felt has been a common thread throughout your posts. That is whether it really has been worth the anguish that you have admitted to and I'd say not but only you can be the final judge of that.