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buckley plumb

Had a guy call me on Saturday saying he had fitted his own intergas boiler and would I check and register it and get him the extended warranty. He was not happy when I told him no and that he should not have fitted his own boiler.

Leo it wasn't you was it
 
No mate, I can fill in the paperwork, but have no idea what buttons to press in what order.


and good on yer for telling him where to get off.
 
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You should have gone, then apologised that you couldn't do it, then rang the gas provider for an illegal instal and waited for them to cut his gas off. Satisfaction guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
You should have gone, then apologised that you couldn't do it, then rang the gas provider for an illegal instal and waited for them to cut his gas off. Satisfaction guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!!!

& charged him cash call out to look & quote!
 
You should have gone, then apologised that you couldn't do it, then rang the gas provider for an illegal instal and waited for them to cut his gas off. Satisfaction guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1 you should of went and capped it and phoned gas safe and gas board, and took pics for all of us to look at :D
 
There may of been nothing amiss with the installation but to ask a gsr to sign it off for the extended warranty is taking the pee.
 
Doesn't this come under the loop hole that you can fit what you want in your own property as long as your not doing it for gain ! and the only way it will ever be stopped is if the general public are stopped from buying gas appliances, but we all know this will never happen, it's been looked into , but comes under restrictive practice , Have been asked loads of times in the past about doing the same thing, so they can get the warranty on the boiler, not sure how the house insurer would look on customer installing own gas appliance, would they invalidate any policy immediately or just wait until something happened ????? and how meny would tell insurance company in the first place, This just makes a mockery of everything we have to go through do our job.
 
Doesn't this come under the loop hole that you can fit what you want in your own property as long as your not doing it for gain ! and the only way it will ever be stopped is if the general public are stopped from buying gas appliances, but we all know this will never happen, it's been looked into , but comes under restrictive practice , Have been asked loads of times in the past about doing the same thing, so they can get the warranty on the boiler, not sure how the house insurer would look on customer installing own gas appliance, would they invalidate any policy immediately or just wait until something happened ????? and how meny would tell insurance company in the first place, This just makes a mockery of everything we have to go through do our job.


Been saying this for years only people that can stop this is insurance companies , the whole gas safe ethic is utter shambolic joke.
 
when BnQ is banned fm flogging boilers to Joe public, then the industry will improve
 
No, it absolutely won't. Stop kidding yourself.

so how come the likes of Oz dont sell to the public, works ok there, the dear old french are very parochial in their methods, each trade getting permits for their area to work and everyone knows not to use fly by nights and expects a good service.
 
so how come the likes of Oz dont sell to the public, works ok there, the dear old french are very parochial in their methods, each trade getting permits for their area to work and everyone knows not to use fly by nights and expects a good service.

because they would have to stop selling elecs and then they would go bust
 
so how come the likes of Oz dont sell to the public, works ok there, the dear old french are very parochial in their methods, each trade getting permits for their area to work and everyone knows not to use fly by nights and expects a good service.

When you say it "works" Lame, what do you mean? Sure, they enforce restrictive practices. But do they have less deaths through CO poisoning? Less hospitalisations per 1000 gas customers? Because if the body count isn't lower then its just the same as the old medieval guilds. And you will happy when you are not allowed to wire a plug, change your brake pads, or go up on a roof unless you are part of the "officially sanctioned mafia"?

I spent a long time recently talking to the countries leading campaigner on CO deaths. She doesn't even rate limiting sales of appliances as being on the scale of things that would reduce deaths.

And in the privacy of the Arms, and after 30 years in this industry, whilst I have seen horrors from non-registered engineers, I regret to say that I have seen more dangerous installs from so called "qualified" engineers.
 
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so how come the likes of Oz dont sell to the public, works ok there, the dear old french are very parochial in their methods, each trade getting permits for their area to work and everyone knows not to use fly by nights and expects a good service.

Canada is the same but they still have problems. Licenses and permits but still full of cowboys.
 
All the problems I come across are by and large caused by diy or cowboy builders, if the cant purchase the gear they cant do the harm, as for not being able to do the elctrics etc, I would be happy to do the requisite training if required or as I normally do on big jobs, employ a sparky. One ladies opinion isnt always correct after all anyone can apply stats to suit their own needs.
 
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All the problems I come across are by and large caused by diy or cowboy builders, if the cant purchase the gear they cant do the harm, as for not being able to do the elctrics etc, I would be happy to do the requisite training if required or as I normally do on big jobs, employ a sparky. One ladirs opinion isnt always correct after all anyone can apply stats to suit their own needs.

Jon, I'm sorry, but your utter ignorance of this subject is only matched by your lack of desire to correct it.

Of course this lady's opinion isn't guaranteed to be correct. She has only investigated in detail every single UK death from CO and gas explosion for the last 20 years. Every single one - including attending inquests, counselling the bereaved and recording the statistics. I am sure that your opinion is supported by equally thorough research? No? Well there's a surprise!

And you continue to make the most naive assumption of all. If the untrained DIY enthusiast is denied access to the proper materials, then off course he will immediately see the error if his ways, and retain the services of a qualified engineer. There is absolutely no chance that he will try to use garden hose in place of a cooker hose, or source 2nd hand parts via Ebay, to the still greater risk of his children, tenants and neighbours.

Please bear in mind that I run a trade only business, and it would be substantially to my business advantage if this sort of policy would help, but not only does it divert resources from more useful campaigns, but on its own, it would probably lead to more, not less deaths.

So can we please stop repeating this complete ********, and actually research the effing situation?

<sorry mods - just realised my last sentence set of the profanity filter>
 
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So commenting on what you are saying then Ray, you only sell to the trade ! and you seam to make a living from it, But if business fell off would you be happy selling gas related products to Mr average knowing what could happen, and would it bother you ?
 
we can all agree and disagree as much as we like. But taken in its simplest form, reducing access to the means of diy repairs etc will help reduce issues. I never said it would stop it all together, but the one thing your lady doesnt account for that happens all the time is that the professionals out there are regularly coming across dangerous situations, resolving them and getting on with our daily toil. Your ladies stats have no way of taking that into account in any means or form hence why what you are spouting on about is also utter tripe. Please dont assume we are naive, we are the ones at the coalface preventing more deaths on a regular basis, my last one being a new customer who mentioned she wasnt feeling to good in the afternoons recently, turns out the builder who installed her fire didnt see the need to flue iaw mfis and she was getting co poisoning on a daily basis, proved with an air sample taked in here lounge. But the stupid thing was, she wouldnt let me know his name so the riddor process couldnt even be started as there was no one to chase. So I dont say you can eliminate the issues, but you can go a long way towards preventing them taken in its simplest form. After all, why else did government ban certain firearms if they didnt think it would have an effect on the number of deaths caused by illegal ones? For once Ray you may not be correct after all
 
So commenting on what you are saying then Ray, you only sell to the trade ! and you seam to make a living from it, But if business fell off would you be happy selling gas related products to Mr average knowing what could happen, and would it bother you ?

Very many of our sales are not to GSR engineers JTS. Housing associations, other merchants, MOD, government depts etc who represent no risk. Should the ethical issue ever arise, i would base my decision on actual evidence, not guesswork.
 
Restricting the sale of gas related items, in my opinion, may actually cause more issues. The muppets will just clash together non gas compliant materials to do the job instead. Just my tuppence.
 
Very many of our sales are not to GSR engineers JTS. Housing associations, other merchants, MOD, government depts etc who represent no risk. Should the ethical issue ever arise, i would base my decision on actual evidence, not guesswork.

I understand that, but the people you mention I am sure ! will not be letting Tenants, government departments or people In the MOD fit there own gas products
 
Very many of our sales are not to GSR engineers JTS. Housing associations, other merchants, MOD, government depts etc who represent no risk. Should the ethical issue ever arise, i would base my decision on actual evidence, not guesswork.

I feel that the problem here is that they are using the wrong evidence. If the HSE were to do their job and start to chase down riddors and reports from the coal face rigorously, then perhaps the evidence produced would give them a far bigger and better sample from which to make some proper and effective actions on what is needed to make the whole industry safer. I have never had any feedback from GSR or HSE on any riddors I have raised over my time, and the one time buiding regs and hse did look at a problem I raised, because the owner didnt have any problems with the builder, they walked away!!
 
I feel that the problem here is that they are using the wrong evidence. If the HSE were to do their job and start to chase down riddors and reports from the coal face rigorously, then perhaps the evidence produced would give them a far bigger and better sample from which to make some proper and effective actions on what is needed to make the whole industry safer. I have never had any feedback from GSR or HSE on any riddors I have raised over my time, and the one time buiding regs and hse did look at a problem I raised, because the owner didnt have any problems with the builder, they walked away!!

I to have had instances like this, going to all the trouble of doing the paper work, only to find that nothing is done, so it gets to the point of why bother, it becomes a pointless exercise
 
The HSE/GSR need to step up in my opinion start chasing rogue traders however that costs money and quite often than not they won't chase due to cost , a friend of mine deals with HSE on reg basis and can't be bothered unless its asbestos as its traceable.

Insurance companies can go a long way to stopping a lot of rogue trading
 
Jon, I'm sorry, but your utter ignorance of this subject is only matched by your lack of desire to correct it.

Of course this lady's opinion isn't guaranteed to be correct. She has only investigated in detail every single UK death from CO and gas explosion for the last 20 years. Every single one - including attending inquests, counselling the bereaved and recording the statistics. I am sure that your opinion is supported by equally thorough research? No? Well there's a surprise!

And you continue to make the most naive assumption of all. If the untrained DIY enthusiast is denied access to the proper materials, then off course he will immediately see the error if his ways, and retain the services of a qualified engineer. There is absolutely no chance that he will try to use garden hose in place of a cooker hose, or source 2nd hand parts via Ebay, to the still greater risk of his children, tenants and neighbours.

Please bear in mind that I run a trade only business, and it would be substantially to my business advantage if this sort of policy would help, but not only does it divert resources from more useful campaigns, but on its own, it would probably lead to more, not less deaths.

So can we please stop repeating this complete ********, and actually research the effing situation?

<sorry mods - just realised my last sentence set of the profanity filter>

So is this how as a society we should be making decisions then, see how many die or gets poisoned & use those to determine our actions?

Some in this post have claimed that GasSafe doesn't work, loads & loads of cases of illegal gas work being undertaken, is this situation helped by the fact that joe public see all that they need freely on sale in there local shed or builders merchant, what message does this send?

We don't need to go as far as other countries, like the limits on who can trade but it might help if there were some clearly defined boundaries that once crossed it was clear that the public were in the wrong.

What we have at the moment across the whole of the industry is a free for all which is serving nobody.
 
From memory my local merchants about 3 Years ago if they sold a boiler the purchaser had to fill in a sheet so the boiler was traceable but this didn't last long and was never enforced. I see no problem with boilers being sold to the public as most do get a gsre to fit them. The policeing should be that the boiler can't be registered and insurance companies should insist on proof before issuing house insurance.
 
From memory my local merchants about 3 Years ago if they sold a boiler the purchaser had to fill in a sheet so the boiler was traceable but this didn't last long and was never enforced. I see no problem with boilers being sold to the public as most do get a gsre to fit them. The policeing should be that the boiler can't be registered and insurance companies should insist on proof before issuing house insurance.

Well thats just it boilers are registered on a data base so no reg no house insurance.
 
I keep coming back to an idea of Ray's that would quash a shed load of arguments.

Boiler's cannot be commissioned or reset after case removal (or any other type of lockout that could prove hazardous if not checked prior to resetting), without insertion of a gsr chip and pin card.

The tech is there, just needs incorporating.

The boiler then holds a permanent record of who's done what and when. Can also be used to combat the handful of rogue custards out there.
 
Its a good idea crop then the price of the boiler shoots up to incorparate the tech which will prob be met with mix reviews from the buyers ,
 
Totally agree cropster sadly we will never stop people buying gas "stuff" however stopping them actually being able to turn the things on insures safety
 
we can all agree and disagree as much as we like.

Indeed we can. The difference, perhaps, is whether we deploy facts and research to support our arguments.

But taken in its simplest form, reducing access to the means of diy repairs etc will help reduce issues.

And there we go, with an assertion entirely without any supportive evidence.

I should make something clear here. If your argument is that restricting the sale of gas appliance to GSRs will be to the short term economic advantage of GSRs, then you are absolutely correct. Should it remain the only restrictive legislation, and if the industry manages to restrict the numbers entering the profession, then, just like an old fashioned medieval guild, it will work to their advantage in the long term.

Of course, should all other similar trades seek and obtain similar protections, then the resulting inflation in other goods and services will cancel out any gain. Indeed, the overall effect will be to reduce economic growth and impoverish all, even those it seeks to advantage.

However, I am addressing the assertion that public safety would be enhanced by restricting sales of gas appliances, spares etc to registered engineers. I assume that this argument presumes that such a restriction would reduce the deaths caused either by CO or by gas explosion, or at least reduce the occurence of ill health or injury caused by these factors?

If there is another argument, please share it.

So, to make the case for restricting sales, we have to do two things:

1) We have to establish at least the likelihood that such a restriction would reduce the body count AND
2) We have to estabish that this is the most effective solution - ie that the same reduction in bodycount could not be achieved at less cost through an alternative policy

So, lets check out the body count.

The first thing we notice is that CO deaths are not generally caused by Mains gas appliances. They are overwhelmingly caused by other fuel types
The next thing that we notice is that the actual number of clearly attributable deaths involving mains gas is incredibly small*. 3 in 2012/13. Zero the year before. The preceding years are 12, 4, 16, 11 and 9 respectively.
Getting into the detail, in most cases, the problem is that the appliance had NO attention, whether from a qualified engineer, or not.
Finally, in the very rare occasion where the appliance had received work that resulted in the death, the evidence is mixed - some is caused by qualified engineers having a bad day, others by DIY attention.

Now, we have all heard of the law of unintended consequences.

It is a mistake to assume that, denied access to the proper equipment, the DIYer or penny pinching landlord will immediately see the light, and engage a competent engineer. Sure, some will. But others will persist, and will use inappropriate materials, thus risking a higher body count.

After talking at length to the lady who runs the CO death charity, I got two clear messages. The first was that public awareness of CO, and the value of CO alarms should be the subject of an advertising campaign. (And I see that this is currently underway.) The other was that the profession and regulatory authorities should look harder at enforcing standards amongst qualified engineers.

You may not like to hear it, but thats an unbiased opinion. If you want to save lives, campaign for public awareness and CO alarms. And lobby GasSafe get your own house in order.

Its easy to blame DIYers, but they are not the primary risk here.

And, at the risk of boring everyone, between 60% and 80% of sales of gas appliances are to non-GSRs, but are not to DIY. They are sales down the supply chain (manufacturer > distributor > merchant) or to perfectly respectable organisations like HAs, government departments, MOD, universities, housebuilders etc. Since I assume that you don't wish to ban sales to these organisation, you would have to introduce a new regulatory infrastructure of "not GSR, but allowed to deal in appliances". All this expense could be devoted to actually addressing the problem, rather than your misconception of the problem.




*Near misses are much harder to quantify, as CO poisoning in non-fatal cases often goes undiagnosed. However, there is no reason to believe that non-fatal poisoning cases have a differing cause-profile from fatal cases.
 
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Its a good idea crop then the price of the boiler shoots up to incorparate the tech which will prob be met with mix reviews from the buyers ,

Agreed mate but if it's across the board then people will have to pay if they want a new appliance
 
So is this how as a society we should be making decisions then, see how many die or gets poisoned & use those to determine our actions?

If we are arguing it as a public safety issue Chris, then absolutely yes, we should base the decision on safety outcomes.

How else would you base it?
 
Its a good idea crop then the price of the boiler shoots up to incorparate the tech which will prob be met with mix reviews from the buyers ,

The technical cost is trivial.

Manufacturers would have to add the logic and a USB port (if not already fitted) to their PCB.

My bank already give me the rest of the hardware for nothing as part of my online banking service, so it can't cost more than a few quid.
 
trouble is Ray, governments dont react to facts normally, just what is hurting them most. the reaction to 16 deaths in hungerford and 17 in dunblane got them moving to change laws on semi automatic weapons and hand guns as the public demanded it. However 16 deaths due to poor maintenance etc just doesnt cause the same response sadly. The fact the number of guns out there available for illegal use probably hasnt changed ( hearsay of course) hasnt resulted in any less killings, they even seem to be on the increase.

But if you do bugger all nothing will change anyhow, so restricting access to gas items isnt a bad idea, (sales to has or mod isnt an issue as we all know gsrs install them) But saving the potential one or two deaths if one of us doesnt get there first has to be a good idea, even if it only a rare occurrence as you say.

So lets start somewhere as co alarms are only bolting the door after the horse has left the stable and sadly most of them will never work as they are not positioned correctly to allow them to alarm in time anyhow. omho which after all we can all have and if a few more of us got up and put the ideas out there then eventually your lady may listen and put together a few ideas to put forward to those in charge.
 
i think were all imagining a problem that doesn't realy exist in any situation that can cause risk its the severity of the risk that triggers action. If gas co deaths are as ray quotes is it really a situation that needs looking at any further
I'm sure there are many more deaths caused by paracetamol each year and i can buy that in the corner shop, cars cause many more deaths but we accept that
personally i think the figures are probably as low as they can be given the number of gas users
Zero gas related co deaths is almost certainly unachievable over any length of time
 
almost a statisic my self just noticed a smell of burning and realise the anglepoise type light beside my computer has slid down and welded the bulb to the side of the monitor
 
If we are arguing it as a public safety issue Chris, then absolutely yes, we should base the decision on safety outcomes.

How else would you base it?

Personal I would like us to foresee the problems before they arose, not wait until there were a number of bodies.

What if it was one of your loved ones, Ray (god forbid) would you be so keen to wait until the count got high enough for action to be take.

Maybe it took a move into a side of the industry that is far more risk adverse, were the consequences of getting it wrong can be devastating for my eyes to be opened wider.
Yes there is a cost to maintain good H&S but it is not just about the money spent, it is about changing the culture and attitudes within a company, an industry or even a country.

This is never achieved with a single action or solution however much me may wish it or merit an idea appears to carry.
We have to tackle this from all fronts setting the limits for what is acceptable from plumbers, members of the public, legislators and enforcer's alike.

No system is perfect we all understand that but what you lot have at the moment is akin to the wild west, it makes me very glade I don't have to rely on it for my income or health any more.
 
Personal I would like us to foresee the problems before they arose, not wait until there were a number of bodies.

What if it was one of your loved ones, Ray (god forbid) would you be so keen to wait until the count got high enough for action to be take.

How else do you measure a safety initiative Chris, if not my measuring the number of accidents that it prevents?

For all that you compare it to the wild west, our regulatory regime is actually quite effective.

In the 5 years 1995-2000, the average number of CO deaths in the UK was 56, of which 22 were caused by Mains Gas.

In the most recent 5 years for which we have stats, the average number of CO deaths is 24, of which 7 were caused by Mains Gas. In the most recent two years, the average is just 1.5 people.

That is a massive reduction, and an achievement upon which all involved should look with pride.

Thats not to say that more can't be acheived, and it would be great to get to zero.

But to stop those 24 people a year from dying, we should look at what is actually killing them, not guess.
 
It's so difficult as there are many things that could make people safer but if we as an educated and experienced forum differ in our opinion so vastly what chance have the uninitiated. I think we all agree that something needs doing to protect the public as well as eliminate the Cowboys/diyers it's just very hard to pick a starting point. Gas safe always seem mute on the subject. The amount of times I'm still asked if I'm corgi I think speaks volumes about how much Gas Safe have made themselves known in the public domain. Whilst they are not solely to blame I think our "figure head" should have a much greater presence and prosecuting power albeit via the hse. People safety shouldn't boil down to funding and ÂŁ signs
 
Indeed we can. The difference, perhaps, is whether we deploy facts and research to support our arguments.



And there we go, with an assertion entirely without any supportive evidence.

I should make something clear here. If your argument is that restricting the sale of gas appliance to GSRs will be to the short term economic advantage of GSRs, then you are absolutely correct. Should it remain the only restrictive legislation, and if the industry manages to restrict the numbers entering the profession, then, just like an old fashioned medieval guild, it will work to their advantage in the long term.

Of course, should all other similar trades seek and obtain similar protections, then the resulting inflation in other goods and services will cancel out any gain. Indeed, the overall effect will be to reduce economic growth and impoverish all, even those it seeks to advantage.

However, I am addressing the assertion that public safety would be enhanced by restricting sales of gas appliances, spares etc to registered engineers. I assume that this argument presumes that such a restriction would reduce the deaths caused either by CO or by gas explosion, or at least reduce the occurence of ill health or injury caused by these factors?

If there is another argument, please share it.

So, to make the case for restricting sales, we have to do two things:

1) We have to establish at least the likelihood that such a restriction would reduce the body count AND
2) We have to estabish that this is the most effective solution - ie that the same reduction in bodycount could not be achieved at less cost through an alternative policy

So, lets check out the body count.

The first thing we notice is that CO deaths are not generally caused by Mains gas appliances. They are overwhelmingly caused by other fuel types
The next thing that we notice is that the actual number of clearly attributable deaths involving mains gas is incredibly small*. 3 in 2012/13. Zero the year before. The preceding years are 12, 4, 16, 11 and 9 respectively.
Getting into the detail, in most cases, the problem is that the appliance had NO attention, whether from a qualified engineer, or not.
Finally, in the very rare occasion where the appliance had received work that resulted in the death, the evidence is mixed - some is caused by qualified engineers having a bad day, others by DIY attention.

Now, we have all heard of the law of unintended consequences.

It is a mistake to assume that, denied access to the proper equipment, the DIYer or penny pinching landlord will immediately see the light, and engage a competent engineer. Sure, some will. But others will persist, and will use inappropriate materials, thus risking a higher body count.

After talking at length to the lady who runs the CO death charity, I got two clear messages. The first was that public awareness of CO, and the value of CO alarms should be the subject of an advertising campaign. (And I see that this is currently underway.) The other was that the profession and regulatory authorities should look harder at enforcing standards amongst qualified engineers.

You may not like to hear it, but thats an unbiased opinion. If you want to save lives, campaign for public awareness and CO alarms. And lobby GasSafe get your own house in order.

Its easy to blame DIYers, but they are not the primary risk here.

And, at the risk of boring everyone, between 60% and 80% of sales of gas appliances are to non-GSRs, but are not to DIY. They are sales down the supply chain (manufacturer > distributor > merchant) or to perfectly respectable organisations like HAs, government departments, MOD, universities, housebuilders etc. Since I assume that you don't wish to ban sales to these organisation, you would have to introduce a new regulatory infrastructure of "not GSR, but allowed to deal in appliances". All this expense could be devoted to actually addressing the problem, rather than your misconception of the problem.




*Near misses are much harder to quantify, as CO poisoning in non-fatal cases often goes undiagnosed. However, there is no reason to believe that non-fatal poisoning cases have a differing cause-profile from fatal cases.





















































Pardon.
 
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