Have I dropped my self in it here?

[kirkgas]

If you leave a permissible and don't investigate the appliances and it causes an explosion where do you think the HSE will come knocking. For the sake of an extra test isolating all the appliances and only testing the pipe work will allow peace of mind and ensure that you followed correct protocol. You haven't dropped yourself in it just remember safety is paramount.

I beg to differ on what you have said here.
If you wish to say your opinion is that it is better to isolate and check the appliances then that is your opinion and cannot be wrong, however what you have said "ensure you follows correct protocol" is not correct
Read IGE/Up/1b and quote where it says you MUST investigate the permissable drop and prove it isn't on the carcass
If it says you must investigate the source they would not give you a table of permissable drops on existing systems with existing appliances
And on your point of where the HSE would go after an explosion, yes they would come to me as the last person to work on it and when I showed them my paperwork they could not charge me with anything, it isn't about just doing an extra test, although you could end up doing 3/4 tests, it's about the action you need to take when you identify where the leak is, on the carcass you need to rectify or blank it off, but say it's on the cooker, if you can't smell gas can you reconnect the cooker, or say it's on the boiler, it's room sealed, electronic ignition, you ISO the boiler and it's sound, you open the valve and it drops 2mb, you LDF the gas parts after the ISO and can't find the leak, therefor it must be passing through the thermo electric valve therefore it's ID
I know the regs and will not get into trouble by complying with them, or they will need to rewrite them for everyone else and they won't do that and prove themselves wrong, I don't mind people wanting to do everything they can, but if you test the carcass only and then have to cap it have you complied with the reg or overstepped the mark, yes for the best intentions, but I say you are overstepping by isolating the appliances without permission and explaining the ramifications

 

[kirkgas]

so what about if there is a permissable drop and some pipework from the meter has been extended for eg external wall insulation has been fitted and gas carcass from meter has been extended but tagged onto existing pipework.
Someone else has extended the pipe and tagged on, you turn up for final cert and find permissable drop, no smell of gas with appliances connected.
Would this no longer be classed as existing and they havent recorded a drop on their cert.

It is either existing or new to whoever is working on it, remember if you extend an existing system your new pipework cannot have any leak, so they would/should test, find 2mb drop, connect their new pipework and if the drop is still 2mb they are good to go,
I'm dismayed at the amount of one day heating installers I've assessed who don't test in the morning and only test at night and think it's right to say "as long as the leak is less than 4 or 8 when I'm done that's allowed" eh no it isnae as you don't know where the leak is, and these are reassessment guys

 

[kirkgas]

I would note it down on cp12 if no smell, if its a paying customer give them the option of isolating and trying to source the leak. But if you find it's a drop on the pipework you've got to repair it.

I agree about noting it down, I have noted everything for many years, but it is acceptable on the paperwork that asks for just PASS/FAIL to write PASS if you find a drop, however I've told guys for years to write PASS and then in the notes write "2mb drop, no smell" to me this helps prove you did the test, and it advises the responsible person there is a slight drop and passes the buck back to them to decide not to investigate it.
I've also got into the habit on CP12 Work of marking down in the appliance section that a " parkinson 210 electric cooker is fitted" etc, not necessary obviously but it's good CYA, as we know when there's a prob they will talk to the last guy, so if that was me 6 months ago doing a service and the house blows up due to the gas cooker, they will question me why I. Issued the gas cooker and didn't check it, I try to remember the house and maybe that there wasn't a gas Coker fitted as I don't miss things, but if I've marked down a specific electric cooker it helps them investigate, and low and behold find out the brother in law fitted a second hand cooker last week, and I'm off the hook

 

[stratplus]

It is either existing or new to whoever is working on it, remember if you extend an existing system your new pipework cannot have any leak, so they would/should test, find 2mb drop, connect their new pipework and if the drop is still 2mb they are good to go,
I'm dismayed at the amount of one day heating installers I've assessed who don't test in the morning and only test at night and think it's right to say "as long as the leak is less than 4 or 8 when I'm done that's allowed" eh no it isnae as you don't know where the leak is, and these are reassessment guys

Ok but if they didnt test either b4 or after the additional pipework or hadnt noted a drop and i come to issue the cert i suppose i would class that as existing because i havent worked on it. The additional pipework would have been down to them to test and nothing to do with me.

 

[GGB Heating]

I beg to differ on what you have said here.
If you wish to say your opinion is that it is better to isolate and check the appliances then that is your opinion and cannot be wrong, however what you have said "ensure you follows correct protocol" is not correct
Read IGE/Up/1b and quote where it says you MUST investigate the permissable drop and prove it isn't on the carcass
If it says you must investigate the source they would not give you a table of permissable drops on existing systems with existing appliances
And on your point of where the HSE would go after an explosion, yes they would come to me as the last person to work on it and when I showed them my paperwork they could not charge me with anything, it isn't about just doing an extra test, although you could end up doing 3/4 tests, it's about the action you need to take when you identify where the leak is, on the carcass you need to rectify or blank it off, but say it's on the cooker, if you can't smell gas can you reconnect the cooker, or say it's on the boiler, it's room sealed, electronic ignition, you ISO the boiler and it's sound, you open the valve and it drops 2mb, you LDF the gas parts after the ISO and can't find the leak, therefor it must be passing through the thermo electric valve therefore it's ID
I know the regs and will not get into trouble by complying with them, or they will need to rewrite them for everyone else and they won't do that and prove themselves wrong, I don't mind people wanting to do everything they can, but if you test the carcass only and then have to cap it have you complied with the reg or overstepped the mark, yes for the best intentions, but I say you are overstepping by isolating the appliances without permission and explaining the ramifications

This is your interpretation of the regs, which clearly state that no drop across the carcass, to test the carcass you would have to isolate all the appliances together and test, therefore not leaving it to chance whether or not the leak is on the carcass or not. Without proving the gas leak is not on the carcass how would you know? Has for overstepping the mark at this point the customer would have been informed of my findings and told what I was doing.

 

[kirkgas]

Ok but if they didnt test either b4 or after the additional pipework or hadnt noted a drop and i come to issue the cert i suppose i would class that as existing because i havent worked on it. The additional pipework would have been down to them to test and nothing to do with me.

Exactly, if you have just fitted it it's new, anything else is existing, to the letter of the law if you fit a new boiler and cooker on the Monday and for whatever reason I'm back on the Tuesday to move the cooker 400mm to the left, I do a TT and find a 2mb drop I could leave it as it's existing with existing appliances, however this is where real common sense comes in, I COULD leave a drop but I wouldn't, because it's obvious that something is wrong, the reason for the permissable drop is because of microscopic leaks in the gas valves and controls etc, so as they are existing I could leave them, but within 24hrs it's impossible for a wear and tear leak to appear, so I know there is something needing attended to,

 

[Whyme]

I beg to differ on what you have said here.
If you wish to say your opinion is that it is better to isolate and check the appliances then that is your opinion and cannot be wrong, however what you have said "ensure you follows correct protocol" is not correct
Read IGE/Up/1b and quote where it says you MUST investigate the permissable drop and prove it isn't on the carcass
If it says you must investigate the source they would not give you a table of permissable drops on existing systems with existing appliances
And on your point of where the HSE would go after an explosion, yes they would come to me as the last person to work on it and when I showed them my paperwork they could not charge me with anything, it isn't about just doing an extra test, although you could end up doing 3/4 tests, it's about the action you need to take when you identify where the leak is, on the carcass you need to rectify or blank it off, but say it's on the cooker, if you can't smell gas can you reconnect the cooker, or say it's on the boiler, it's room sealed, electronic ignition, you ISO the boiler and it's sound, you open the valve and it drops 2mb, you LDF the gas parts after the ISO and can't find the leak, therefor it must be passing through the thermo electric valve therefore it's ID
I know the regs and will not get into trouble by complying with them, or they will need to rewrite them for everyone else and they won't do that and prove themselves wrong, I don't mind people wanting to do everything they can, but if you test the carcass only and then have to cap it have you complied with the reg or overstepped the mark, yes for the best intentions, but I say you are overstepping by isolating the appliances without permission and explaining the ramifications

well said kirk.

 

[GGB Heating]

I'am slightly perplexed not to see my previous post which I wrote. But anyway I understand what your saying Kirkgas but if you don't isolate the appliances then how can you prove that the leak is not on the carcass therefore possibly leaving an I.D. situation. As for overstepping the mark it states that you must inform the responsible person of a gas leak whether it's permissible or not so before isolating I would have already informed the customer and told them that I was carrying out another test to see if the gas leak was permissible or not.

 

[kirkgas]

I'am slightly perplexed not to see my previous post which I wrote. But anyway I understand what your saying Kirkgas but if you don't isolate the appliances then how can you prove that the leak is not on the carcass therefore possibly leaving an I.D. situation. As for overstepping the mark it states that you must inform the responsible person of a gas leak whether it's permissible or not so before isolating I would have already informed the customer and told them that I was carrying out another test to see if the gas leak was permissible or not.

GGB
OK as long as you talk to the customer before you isolate and they know the risk and agree then that's fine, as for having to isolate to prove its on the existing pipe, you don't have to, the permissible drop table is for existing systems with existing appliances, nowhere in IGE/UP/1b does it say you have to, however once you do and know its on the pipe then you obviously need to act accordingly
Have a read through the doc and you won't find anywhere that you MUST ISO the appliances, whether anyone thinks that's right or wrong is a good debate but not relevant to the actual statement that it's not required, phone Gas Safe Technical and ask the specific question, they might hedge their bets on suggesting what might be good practice etc, but if you push for a specific answer I can't see them saying you MUST ISO the appliances, the wording is vague but I'm clear what I must do

 

[kirkgas]

I'am slightly perplexed not to see my previous post which I wrote. But anyway I understand what your saying Kirkgas but if you don't isolate the appliances then how can you prove that the leak is not on the carcass therefore possibly leaving an I.D. situation. As for overstepping the mark it states that you must inform the responsible person of a gas leak whether it's permissible or not so before isolating I would have already informed the customer and told them that I was carrying out another test to see if the gas leak was permissible or not.

GGB
I'm not doubting you at all, but where does it say you must inform the responsible person of the permissible drop? I don't recall ever reading that, it's something I always do even using paperwork that just asked for PASS/FAIL, I always put PASS and in the notes what the drop was