BG Combi Boiler - banging noises, now F5 fault; annual service done 2 weeks ago?

[oldp]

My mum had a BG combi boiler fitted 6 years ago to replace an old boiler on a 35 year old central heating system.
She's had a Homecare 400 contract to service the boiler annually; all fine until this year.

It was serviced 2 weeks ago; apparently all ok. The house isn't being lived in full time, so Mum had the heating system set to a low boiler setting, and the wall mounted heating thermostat set very low (like 5degrees) so that it only cuts in if it gets really cold - on the advice of the BG engineer doing the servicing.

I've been there today and switched the heating on - turned up the boiler thermostat, turned up the wall-mounted thermostat and waited for the radiators to get going.

Quite a lot of banging noises from the boiler; a bit of heat started in the radiators; water hot; then the boiler stopped firing, and is now showing an F5 error message (I think its to do with an overheat in the boiler).

So I've arranged for BG to send an engineer. What do you think he will say the problem is? I'm somewhat wary that I'll hear that what is needed is a powerflush.... we did check the radiators by bleeding them, and what came out was clear water, one with a bit of black in it. I'm assuming that BG would have flushed the system when installing the new boiler... although I know that assuming makes an bum...etc!

I appreciate I'm asking a bit of a "how long is a piece of string question", but I don't want to be taken for a ride, and would like a bit of a heads up on what to anticipate - and just how much this is likely to cost on top of the annual contract charge.

Many thanks for reading this....!

 

[Mbear]

Could be the pump if it's overheating but I'm not sure what the f5 code means off hand tbh

 

[diamondgas]

Well my piece of string says your pump has stuck through lack of use ... happens .... Hopfully thats all it'll be my friend :welcome:

 

[oldp]

Thanks Mbear and Diamondgas,
I suspected the lack of use through having it set so low might be part of the problem - mum normally has it like the tropics when she's in residence; I had a nasty feeling that giving it a sudden workout might stir up all sorts of gunk that might have settled, or that an inactive component might just give out.

Just needed a heads up on not being a complete numpty in the face of an expert....

Cheers!

 

[REDSAW]

powerflush!

your better setting it to 10degrees constant as lack of use on a system is asking for problems. there is sludge build up and it will jam things like pump, trv's etc. cycling for ten minutes a day is prevention.

 

[oldp]

Noooooo! Not the dreaded powerflush!

When you say "

setting it to 10degrees constant

do I understand you right in keeping the timer clock on permanently, just leaving the wall-based room thermostat as the controlling feature to start up the system when the ambient temperature drops?

Thanks, Redsaw.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Hi and welcome to the forum ,
yes as redsaw suggested ,could be few things but 1 thing is for sure is get it flush and get a trusted plumber to do it ,will get job done correctly and will cost you much less then what BG will quote you ,Best to do is get them to quote you and come baack here ! We have members from all over the country who will assist and help you

 

[Napper]

hate to be a spoilsport but if cost is an issue you could look at fitting a strainer before the pump, theres lots about for domestic use now. It will collect the dirt floating through the system before it gets to the pump and justs needs cleaning/flushing occasionally.
Id only look at a powerflush to improve efficency and not as a matter of course.

they are good though and a good idea if you can.

 

[Napper]

you may be able to save the pump too if you can free it up but it will ceaze if it continues to pull in debry.

 

[gasmanrob]

if british gas installed it then check your invoice if it was priced for a flush and your mum has kept a rolling care agrement then a reflush would be carried out under the life time warrenty. so no need to fork out again. it is possible to be the pump but wouldnt be to sure as most combi boilers have a pump proving switch so if the pump wont run the boiler wont fire. if it is a glowworm or valliant derrived boiler it may be the heat exchanger restricted or low water pressure have you checked the pressure gauge/display cold systems should be between 1-1.5 bar. does the hot water work ok? either way if they mention a flush check the installation invoice. if they start saying its scale and try to charge you for a heat exchanger ask them about a sonic clean as its free!! and you are entitled to it. ps homecare 400 is the top package they wont want to loose you

 

[bert large]

I thought all BG badged boilers were re-branded Worcesters. Most of them have a pump spin function every 24 hrs to prevent jamming.

 

[CES]

Nah, There have been rebadged Ideal Classics, Worcesters and Glow worms.

 

[samwilko]

All parts and labour are included with the homecare package so they should just hopefully be able to fix it with no charge.

 

[AmritPedersen]

Er, did you re-pressurise the system after bleeding the rads? Sorry to ask, but your question could be read that you might have bled the rads first & didn't re-pressurise.

If BG (ugg!) did the job 6 years ago & maintained the system properly, there should not be enough sludge or scale to cause any problems.

 

[oldp]

Dear All - thanks for coming back to me with your ideas and very good advice - this is going to turn into one of those BG/Homecare 400 agreement rumbling stories....

BG engineer replaced the pump.... apparently it had been replaced back in April when they came out to fix a leaking overflow which as I remember was a ballcock issue in the expansion tank - why the pump would have needed replacing then I don't know, and of course don't have any paperwork to back that up. He also told me that Mum had been recommended to have a powerflush then... ditto no paperwork. I asked whether it would make a difference if I got someone else to do the powerflush, and he said that in that case BG wouldn't replace any parts after that - despite the agreement. So guess what, short and curlies when it comes to paying their price vs A.N.Other operative, or really the Homecare agreement is redundant.

I did however find the boiler installation paperwork from 2005, when they did do a Powerflush at installation. BG engineer told me that would have just been a quick one, not a proper one. He says what we need now is a proper one; he talked to someone "in the office" who said to deduct the cost of that original powerflush (about £248) from the cost of a new one, and that the heat exchanger also needed changing - not covered under the Homecare agreement - so a total cost of £761. Had to say yes at the time as I had no computer to check, and no paperwork to read back through.

Have now had a good read of BGs T&C's - apparently if you've ever purchased a Powerflush through them you need never pay for another one, as long as you've kept a continuous HomeCare Agreement at that property - which is the case here - and I would have thought that a powerflush at installation would qualify as purchasing Powerflush through BG.

Of course the office is closed today so can't discuss this with anyone at BG - but I rather suspect that I have been given misleading information re the charges. I did see some of the water that came out whilst the engineer was changing the pump (and checking the valve/s in the pipe/s above that) and whilst it was mostly clear there was some black gritty sediment at the bottom of the bowl which I can imagine would cause a problem with the pump. I didn't see anything myself to know whether he checked the heat exchanger as to how he would know about why that needs changing, but apparently it just does if you have sludge in the system. This powerflushing has been booked for next Friday (only day available before January) and in the meantime he can't guarantee that anything else won't go wrong, or that the radiators will give off heat in the meantime (they were warm round the edges when I left, but not the middles - they've been fine for all the years since the new boiler fitted) but rather pathetic just now.

I didn't re-pressurise the system after bleeding the rads (hadn't known about that then - I'm learning fast!) - it really would have been a tiny amount of water that came out, is that enough to make a difference? I haven't found a pressure guage myself, (might it be near the pump & other pipework in the airing cupboard near the immersion tank) but hopefully the BG engineer would have seen the state of the pressure when he was doing his checks on Thursday - and flagged that up if it was a problem?

So yes, a powerflush probably is in order - do I need to worry about the state of the admittedly pretty old narrow bore pipework and rads - or would they warn me in advance of a potential problem. Finding those leaking after a good cleanout and needing replacing would be a bit sad (especially as the property is empty a lot of the time). Yes, I realise that is my responsibility, but knowing in advance would be good - and can I rely on the BG Engineers to tell me the truth - I seem to be having a bit of a problem with that already! Are they on commission for these flushes? It did feel like a bit of a hardsell..... but all perfectly plausible, and how would I know any different? (because I'm coming here to the experts to learn, that's how!)

Many thanks again,

 

[AmritPedersen]

Good luck with this. If they're right about non-BG people doing work invalidates the warranty, then you're stuck with them or you need a good lawyer.

What comes to my mind is that a power flush is a power flush. You need to clean the system when installing a new boiler, a proper or quickie flush is neither here nor there.

Also, as part of a regular service they should ensure the inhibitor is kept topped up. Do their records show them checking & maintaining the levels of inhibitor? If not, you might have an argument that they haven't maintained your mum's system properly.

Sometimes I wish I had the cheek to charge GB rates.

I'm assuming BG wants to exchange the primary heat exchanger (the one which gets heated by the flames) & not the secondary heat exchanger (the one that heats up the water that comes out of the hot tap) Well, I'd flush the system first & then see if it needs exchanging (after all the point of flushing is to clean out a system). But then, I would have to charge the client a shed load of money for non-essential work. Not a good idea. However, if these parts & labour are 'free' to your mum under her warranty, then why not?

When you say micro bore, do you mean 15mm or 10mm?

There is always a risk that powerflushing may reveal leaks in rads. Its unlikely to cause problems with the pipework. For me, I've only had one rad go in 10 years & 2 pipe joints give way when converting from an open vented system to to a pressurised one.

Sounds like a real mess. Hope you get a good resolution


I would ask about fitting a magnaclean, to pick up any sludge that is either missed in the flush or that develops over the years.

 

[oldp]

Hi AmritPedersen, thanks for your response

Yes, I'm assuming it is the primary heat exchanger - and I can say that since the banging noises (which are now not there, or weren't after the Engineer had been) the boiler is noisier than it used to be, a noise a bit more like a furred-up kettle getting going - so it very possibly has been damaged/got sludged recently.

When I said micro bore, that was my term, the pipes are about 5mm or 6mm to the radiators. There is one dodgy area joining a radiator, but that should be covered under the Homecare 400 agreement (I would have thought, but I'm sure there's scope for proving me wrong on that somewhere in the wording!). Other than that, they are aged, but no visible signs of damage through rust or corrosion that's obvious. I would hope that might also constitute something they'd check for before blasting through with a power flush (although I believe it's not that powerful).

On the Consumer Action Group forum I found a 19 page (!) thread called "British Gas & Power Flush" which I've read through, and there are several stories very similar to mine with regard to the slight fudging of the Powerflush charging vs having already paid for it issue. I think I'm just going to have to pursue that and state my case with BG on the phone, and hope that they keep to the wording of their contract. I also gleaned from that forum thread that Engineers do get a bonus payment of £9 per powerflush sign-up (posted by a BG Engineer), so whilst it might not be a great incentive to push the product, I guess for everyone there is an element of personal gain. It would just keep the Engineers from this kind of accusation if that didn't exist in the first place - BG's fault, not theirs.

Thanks for taking the time to reply - you've been very helpful.
Cheers!

 

[oldp]

A quick update re BG HomeCare 400 agreement - BG have accepted that we had a Powerflush on installation and kept a continuous agreement running at the property - and so are not liable for the £761 they quoted (which included a £248 deduction for cost of first Powerflush) to reflush and replace the heat exchanger. A small victory for the little person against the large organisation.

Just got to get the work done & the boiler and central heating system running now - I'm not sure we're necessarily out of the woods yet, so watch this space!