bathroom towel rail said to be on the hot water circuit

[eddiebrown424]

Hi All,

Attended a job today and was informed that the bathroom rail was on the hot water circuit. it is a large communal boiler in a block of flats with no valves or stopcocks in the flat. I tried draining but obviously couldnt without stopping the system filling. There is a pump in the kitchen and both bathroom but no other isolation and I cant even freeze the pipe.

Any ideas

eddie

 

[plumber0808]

What is it your trying to do?

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi 808

I wanted to put the rad on the heaating circuit as the customer states its not working properly.

 

[plumber0808]

You need to familiarise yourself with the system and what's doing what.
All the flats must be the same, hot water circuit for towel rails. I would try to sort the problem not change over to heating circuit

 

[Centralheatking]

Sound advice follow it

You need to familiarise yourself with the system and what's doing what.
All the flats must be the same, hot water circuit for towel rails. I would try to sort the problem not change over to heating circuit

 

[eddiebrown424]

two additional rads have been added (to the heating system) and i work for a company that has instructed me to add the t/rail to the heating circuit. I have been told I cant have access to the boiler room and cant find any risers or valves in the flat to isolate much as I agree with your advice I'm in a bit of a quandry. Should I just not touch it? It may have been something as simple as an air lock in the rad.

thanks again

 

[Mike Jackson]

If it is a brass, copper or SS rail it could even be on the hot water supply pipe work. try running a hot tap and see if the rad gets hot.

Are there cylinders in the flats or is the hot water communal?

 

[plumber0808]

If its copper tell them it needs replacing. Isolate and straight in the van

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi

communal hot water rad does warm up (only two bars, hence airlock suggestion) when the hot water is run.

808 i'd love to be able to isolate it thats the prob:rolleyes2:

how does it work if its of the hot water supply PS it looks like a standard towel rail

 

[eddiebrown424]

sorry forgot to add if this is done will it impact on the other flats if they are all on the same system?

 

[plumber0808]

Hi



808 i'd love to be able to isolate it thats the prob:rolleyes2:

I know I get a bit excited when I see the shiny colour of copper. :smart:

 

[Mike Jackson]

The hot water will pass through it on the way to the taps.

 

[eddiebrown424]

hi Mike

that doesnt seem to healthy........ I've isolated the hot water at the pump but the rad still didn't drain any ideas

 

[Mike Jackson]

No different to having a longer run of pipe. Means that it will take longer for the hot water to reach the taps and waste energy but when this sort of thing was done energy wastage wasn't an issue.

To confirm that it it (or isn't) on the hot water supply pipe try turning off the hot feed to the taps. If the taps have stopped running and you still get water out of the air vent on the rad then it isn't on the hot water pipweork and further investigation will be required.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Quick sketch to illustrate system I'm referring to.


HW rail by Mike Jackson1, on Flickr

 

[E4gas]

Quick sketch to illustrate system I'm referring to.


HW rail by Mike Jackson1, on Flickr

You crazy

 

[Mike Jackson]

Why? Used to be common practice. Not something that I would do now though.

 

[E4gas]

The picture shows hot water out of cylinder though rad to taps ,, is that correct

 

[TBServices]

Why? Used to be common practice. Not something that I would do now though.

I thought it was common practice to pipe bathroom rad to HW primaries, not the HW supply? Never seen it done this way.

 

[E4gas]

The rad is off the heating system , not the hot water taps

 

[stevetheplumber]

Quick sketch to illustrate system I'm referring to.


HW rail by Mike Jackson1, on Flickr

in nearly 40 years of plumbing ive never seen a towel rail connected in that fashion as it wouldnt work towel rails that are on trully hot water circuits are when there is a secondary return to the cylinder this allows the rad to stay hot regardless of a tap being run
most domestic towel rails that people say are on the hot water are actually plumbed in to the primaries to the cylinder
on a communial system they could be piped many ways depending how the syten is run you need to speak to someone who knows the sytem if its not obvious from the lay out in the flat

 

[stevetheplumber]

Why? Used to be common practice. Not something that I would do now though.

that has never been common practice as it wouldnt work

 

[Mike Jackson]

The picture shows hot water out of cylinder though rad to taps ,, is that correct

Yes. Not a particularly good idea as far as I'm concerned but when energy was cheap and hot water plentiful it was done. The towel rail was normally copper or sometimes brass so there wouldn't be any corrosion issues. I've not come across one for years but there are bound to be some out there still. Last one I came across was in Brighton and the towel rail in the Bathroom had rotted out because someone had refurbed the bathroom and fitted a nice new steel towel warmer. Had to fit a new rail and pipe it back to the heating system.

 

[Mike Jackson]

that has never been common practice as it wouldnt work

Perhaps I've just been unlucky enough to come across a few systems that have had them in and chatted to some old boys that told me they used to do it a lot. I'm sure I've seen diagrams of it in Treloar as well but I can't find my copy of Treloar.

It works but not very well. But isn't the complaint in this case that the towel rail doesn't work very well anyway. I've also seen in done using a secondary return back to the cylinder which works a lot better but is still very wasteful of hot water.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Perhaps I've just been unlucky enough to come across a few systems that have had them in and chatted to some old boys that told me they used to do it a lot. I'm sure I've seen diagrams of it in Treloar as well but I can't find my copy of Treloar.

It works but not very well. But isn't the complaint in this case that the towel rail doesn't work very well anyway. I've also seen in done using a secondary return back to the cylinder which works a lot better but is still very wasteful of hot water.

how could it work it would only get hot if you ran a bath the rest of the week it would be stone cold( in days of old we only bathed once a week ) and youd have to draw of all that cold water to run a tap
i suspect the op hasnt bleed the rad probably cant see the bleed screw hidden in the end

 

[Mike Jackson]

But you only needed warm towels when you bathed. You're looking at things from a modern perspective. When this sort of thing was being done central heating was a rarity so a rad that got warm once a week so you had warm, dry towels when you got out of the bath was a real luxury. I would imagine that most of the ones that I came across had originally had a solid fuel back boiler heating a direct cylinder and when heating was put in the bathroom towel rail was left as it was.

 

[stevetheplumber]

have to agree to disagree on this one mike on solid fuel they were used as a het sink and plumbed on to the primaries even if the cylider was direct there was always a cicuit

 

[Mike Jackson]

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with though. I've seen, worked on and nearly flooded houses that have towel rails piped in this manner. It's never struck me as good practice or a good idea but if I've come across it there is a possibility that it has been done elsewhere. It may have been a practice that was strictly regional.

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi Mike

Thanks for that.

I have isolated at the pump there is only lots of air coming out of the air vent. The rd was still draining through the valves after 40 mins although the pressure had dropped. I tried to explain that it could form part of another circuit and that it is impossible to isolate and that i didn't know how much water that this circuit held. Also explained that without stopping the circuit getting fed (if it wasn't the hot water circuit isolated at the pump) it may not be possible to isolate it. the boss got quite annoyed and said that he would sort it out by leaving the current valves (as stop ends which i thought was not good practice as the rad has 2 TRVs which i thought had frost controls. He may be able to put decorators caps on but again I thought that without further investigating this may impact on another part of the circuit. I bought a lockshield and a straight TRV as the new pipework will enter the rad from below (as opposed to through the wall) and l Obviously I couldn't see how he was going to attach 2 new valves without moving the rad which the customer says he cant do. Also I wasn't sure if 2 TRVs would impact on the rad working properly. Anyhooooo I think that it is time to look for a company that wants to do the work right and a more team focused boss.

Cheers again for all the advice.

Eddie

 

[plumber0808]

that has never been common practice as it wouldnt work

It would work with the secondary return after the towel rails as it will be on a constant circuit. I have never seen it done though, as said there can't be many of them about.
would be a great strip out.

two trv's? i think clint has visited. :cowboy:

 

[eddiebrown424]

It would work with the secondary return after the towel rails as it will be on a constant circuit. I have never seen it done though, as said there can't be many of them about.
would be a great strip out.

two trv's? i think clint has visited. :cowboy:

yehaa 2 trvs on every rad.

Eddie

 

[tolly]

Ive seen this a few times on old blocks of flats in London that have a communal DHW system with a circulated secondary return. Normally they've tee'd one side of the towel rail into the dhw and the other side is tee'd into the secondary return giving you the circulation.

 

[WHPES]

Never seen what Mike has drawn. Usual for the return on the rad to go back to the cylinder but the water never flows through the radiator to get to the taps.

Bear in mind that if you plumb a new towel rail into the hot water side it must comply with the following to meet regulations:

1, made of brass or copper
2, have thermostatic control