Level 3 plumbing and gas courses...

[chris watkins]

Nobody should be led to believe that the 6035 will make you gas safe registered. In fact the 6035 is not aligned to any competence person schemes, contains a unit on furthering your career all for good reason. It is aimed at and for people not working in the industry, to ensure it is fit for purpose and achievable by inexperienced people it doesnt contain content that would be difficult to achieve if not working in the industry. If it did lead to CPS then employers would see it as a shortcut, it doesnt and therefore employers respect it more knowing a candidate has to develop and be assessed further to progress to 6189 or/and ACS

theres no gas practical assessment in 6035 but i would expect learners to do some practical training to help with understanding, then be assessed theory only as foundation knowledge for ACS later should they progress

Seems to me, based on the above, there is very little reason why anyone would want to take the 6035 Level 3 then?
Plumbing & Heating to level 2 without on-site experience I understand but Level 3, it is just not possible to have a full understanding & make sense of the subject without the ability to apply what is being taught to what is seen & done on-site.

 

[Kay101]

Seems to me, based on the above, there is very little reason why anyone would want to take the 6035 Level 3 then?
Plumbing & Heating to level 2 without on-site experience I understand but Level 3, it is just not possible to have a full understanding & make sense of the subject without the ability to apply what is being taught to what is seen & done on-site.

Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3. It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities.
This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.

In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives

In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.

We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions

 

[Kay101]

email received from below: I asked if level 2 has to be completed prior.

Dear Paul

Thank you for contacting City & Guilds Customer Services .

If the individual is a competent level 3 candidate then it is possible. This would be the decision making of the college or training centre that one applies to as they will all have their measure of determining whether they can place a learner on a level 3.

Ideally someone would be L2 qualified, it may be in some rare instances that someone is educated and experienced to that level without being qualified, if so and this can be demonstrated then maybe they could go straight to L3?

 

[chris watkins]

Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3 Not half as much as the college nicking the fees off them. It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities If you say that is akin to real plumbing, I will believe you.
This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. How they going to do that then they will have forgotten 75%+ of what they were taught by the time they get out there. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.

In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives If you say so but that not what I am hearing with the continued drive by government to increase proper apprenticeships.

In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.

We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions. Oh but they are aren't they. They try to teach plumbing subjects to the same level as the apprenticeship 6189, so if they got a job in plumbing are they going to sit through it all again, No.
Therefore no apprenticeship & for those that understand learning a Craft, it simple can't be done without work.

Talk about, talking the talk but not understanding walk.
I know now that I made the right move to get out of teaching!
So let me get this straight, your now saying that a Level 3 plumbing course is for designers?

Not been a plumbing apprentice yourself then Kay ?

 

[wetdrip]

Ideally someone would be L2 qualified, it may be in some rare instances that someone is educated and experienced to that level without being qualified, if so and this can be demonstrated then maybe they could go straight to L3?

L2 qualified? Mmmm.
Any kid working full time with a half decent plumber/gas fitter doing various jobs over a 2 month period would be far more qualified than any kid doing the college, "Let's get the hoodies of the streets and keep the dole levels down," Level 2.
Excluding lead work that's a FACT.
Go and ask any level2 to take a photograph of the manifold before you start working on it, and he'll have his head under your vans bonnet.

 

[Kay101]

L2 qualified? Mmmm.
Any kid working full time with a half decent plumber/gas fitter doing various jobs over a 2 month period would be far more qualified than any kid doing the college, "Let's get the hoodies of the streets and keep the dole levels down," Level 2.
Excluding lead work that's a FACT.
Go and ask any level2 to take a photograph of the manifold before you start working on it, and he'll have his head under your vans bonnet.

Not sure of your point, my post was answering who can enter a L3 qualification and is accurate

 

[Kay101]

Talk about, talking the talk but not understanding walk.
If you say so but come on no need to be rude.
I know now that I made the right move to get out of teaching!
So let me get this straight, your now saying that a Level 3 plumbing course is for designers?
Nope, I think it was clear but in case it wasnt L3 contains design at a basic level in addition to commissioning, fault finding etc. In future vocational L3 will have to be comparative with academic L3s
Not been a plumbing apprentice yourself then Kay ? Why do you say this?
Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3 Not half as much as the college nicking the fees off them.
Nicking fees? Learners want to learn, know the facts, understand the advantages and limitations then there is no nicking of fees. To make that kind of statement about all colleges you will need cast iron proof every college nicks fees, then I would recommend you do something about it
It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities
If you say that is akin to real plumbing, I will believe you.
Thought I was quite clear that I didnt say it was the same as real plumbing, I think the title gives that away 'simulated'
This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. How they going to do that then they will have forgotten 75%+ of what they were taught by the time they get out there. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.
In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives
If you say so but that not what I am hearing with the continued drive by government to increase proper apprenticeship
Your correct Government want to increase the number of apprenticeships, that doesnt affect the drive to increase standards of vocational full time learning, with employers expected to pay more towards apprenticeships in future any Government drive will struggle without funding.In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.
We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions.
Oh but they are aren't they. They try to teach plumbing subjects to the same level as the apprenticeship 6189, so if they got a job in plumbing are they going to sit through it all again, No.
They are not the same units so they are not taught to the same level, at level 3 the units are not aligned with CPS so YES they will have to take those units again, therefore securing the skills for fully competent installers/plumbers.
Therefore no apprenticeship & for those that understand learning a Craft, it simple can't be done without work.
In an ideal world all trainees would be employed and we all agree that would benefit learning no end, but the simple fact is we are not in that situation. Many many changes to vocational education, apprenticeships WILL change and so will full time courses
They are not going away so we need to work with them so they benefit the industry

 

[wetdrip]

Not sure of your point, my post was answering who can enter a L3 qualification and is accurate

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
As I've asked this question to the relevant people, exam setters etc.
Just depends whether or not the college like the cut of your jib IMHO
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

 

[Kay101]

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

Apologies I misunderstood, you are correct, the L3 acknowledges this and if this expereince and knowledge can be proved someone can enter L3 without a L2.

I would be wary though, whilst there are many good plumbers mates out there the knowledge in these courses are demanding and they unlikely to have that foundation knowledge even if they have the skills

Not sure its due to the 'cut of your jib' in fairness they have to demonstrate they have enrolled correctly and prove this with auditable evidence, its not a given and if people think they are at an advnatages by jumping L2 they will realise its an error quite quickly if they dont know as much as they claim

 

[Kay101]

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
As I've asked this question to the relevant people, exam setters etc.
Just depends whether or not the college like the cut of your jib IMHO
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

who are the exam setters?