training plumbers

[fuzzy]

If taking on an apprentice is helping the competition or not worth it as fast tracking is no point then i guess when you all retire there will no longer be plumbers because no one will give any one a chance oh dear lets hope no other trade thinks like this

we had apprenticeships for years without issue. economics of a free market, when there is a need the companies and they have lots of work they will take on apprentices. When work is dry they will not. Happens in all trades and all walks of life, supply and demand.

many people want to feel like victims these days, boo hoo everyone feel sorry for me. As hard as it is, youve got to keep trying and accept it of you dont get sorted, self pity will get you nowhere

 

[Hybrid]

mikeyb you have to stop and consider at some point that if it's so difficult to get into the trade the opportunity just isn't there.

I would hope that my children will get to where they're going by making wise choices and working hard. Not waiting for someone to give them a chance.
Getting into plumbing when the competition is so stiff isn't a wise choice by any measure.

 

[unguided1]

I wouldnt worry about it Great Britain has a habit of not educating or trainning our own youngsters and we tend to drain the third world countries of their brightest and best to bring them here to pay em bugger all just look at nursing, I would have said football but we them way to much

 

[tamz]

If taking on an apprentice is helping the competition or not worth it as fast tracking is no point then i guess when you all retire there will no longer be plumbers because no one will give any one a chance oh dear lets hope no other trade thinks like this

There is a big difference between starting a fast tracker and an apprentice.
Generally an apprentice will be 16-18, have very little monetary commitments and have little aspirations of becoming self employed (certainly not in the short term) and most will also have a sense of loyalty.
Your average fast tracker is older, may have substantial commitments, most likely wants to go self employed and will have little if any loyalty.
Spot the difference!

A good apprentice (choose carefully) will be an asset to any company but they will inevitably decide to move on to broaden their horizons. Be that to another company or self employed i wish them well.

Personally i have trained 4 apprentices. 1 still works for me, 1 was a waste of space and ended in jail through dealing drugs, 1 is out on his own (doing quite well) and the other is working elsewhere.
I don't see any as competition and i am proud of them all (except the coke head and he knows it).
I planned on starting another apprentice last year when the last lads time was out but the change in times knocked that one on the head. I'm still undecided if i will start one this year. It is all down to supply and demand.
I have given my bit back to the trade and know i have taught them well.

I would never under any circumstances employ or train a fast tracker. It goes against my principles.

 

[Kimou]

I have a tendancy to think outside the box, look at the bigger picture. Well I like to think I do. And put together scenarios that are plausible. So consider this;
There are major reviews happening within the industrial model about all issues we know about and among them is an enforced compliance. Already I have mentioned that I've heard of a deficiency of plumbers, but this is something I've read before the explosion of fast tracking. The gov't has funded the Trade to get more onboard so that must tell us something.
If the domestic plumbing sector is to be policed and upgraded to conform to current standards and procedures like annual landlord certs and most probably privately owned homes will eventually fall into this category, after all, your neighbours' lives and property is potentially at risk, and engs have an obligation to note other issues are in line with regulations and commented on. So the property owner will receive instruction to ammend the engs' observation dependent on risk level, then this will create revenue and jobs. But they must have an efficient workforce in place and competent to effectively deal with changes or there won't be any sense in telling someone to update when there's no one available to do it and if there is, then far too expensive and not commensurate with the job in hand. And for these reasons will the sector stabilise again.

Fire sprinklers in multi occupancy buildings, schools, etc are compulsory in Wales and soon follow in the rest of the UK, landlords will be instructed to make their properties energy efficient by installing proper heating and insulations by a court of law. All this means more work for the plumbing industry and there will be more legislation designed to keep one of the most essential trades to the survival of human existance in the care of only the most informed and qualified.

*
edit- I forgot the crux of my point. This is why there are so many people being encouraged to take on the trade and sign up for fast tracking due to demand going through the roof some some near point in the future.

 

[fuzzy]

you say the government have funded the trade? were is this? its only funded it the same as any other trade.
demand going through the roof, also were is this?
fast track is not gov funded
fast track is often not the full quals

 

[Kimou]

Train for Gain is /was funded. Now ceased. Yes, along with other trades but plumbing is relative to my point.
Demand going through the roof- You'll notice it's a scenario I made up. It's the first thing I mentioned, it's not based on anything than rationale as to why there are so many plumbers now. Maybe part of a bigger picture. Hypothesis/opinion.
And your last two points are not anything I made comment on. I realise that this is true.

 

[Kimou]

Have a look at this. Should bring a smile to some.

FLY-BY-NIGHT TRAINERS HIT HARD TIMES

Dated from April 2010

 

[Gray0689]

IMHO
The only people that get gov funding are the long term doleys
Who are usually the ones that are pretty useless and don't want to work in the first place only do the training to keep getting dole then end up cowboys who don't now what there doing for a fast buck

 

[Kimou]

There are also plumbers trained courtesy of HMPS. I know a lot of my friends when I was younger came out qualified. But I didn't hear too much negativity about that.

 

[Gray0689]

There are also plumbers trained courtesy of HMPS. I know a lot of my friends when I was younger came out qualified. But I didn't hear too much negativity about that.

Only in Britain so you do a crime go to prison and get a trade is that there punishment be a plumber
Only the british goverment would do this to soft total joke
Bring back guy Fawkes to do a proper job this time

 

[Bartdude]

There are also plumbers trained courtesy of HMPS. I know a lot of my friends when I was younger came out qualified. But I didn't hear too much negativity about that.

I know a guy who did this.He's now set up with another plumber and they've got a pretty steady business at the moment.He passes me any oil and LPG work that he gets. They seem to do quite a tidy job from what I've seen too.

When I decide to take someone on however,it will be a young trainee.I wouldn't consider a fast tracker for all the reasons outlined already. Every time I go to my trading estate I see new sign-written vans,and prices are being driven down as a result.Thankfully my business tends to be more of a niche with the range cooker work I specialise in,and I don't have too much competition(yet!!) I've turned down a couple of bathroom enquiries lately,it's just not worth the bother for me.

The sooner this "training" bubble is burst the better for all of us.

 

[SimonG]

It'll be the next big thing after mis sold payment protection insurance and bank charges.
Mis sold training schemes!

 

[fuzzy]

Train for Gain is /was funded. Now ceased. Yes, along with other trades but plumbing is relative to my point.
Demand going through the roof- You'll notice it's a scenario I made up. It's the first thing I mentioned, it's not based on anything than rationale as to why there are so many plumbers now. Maybe part of a bigger picture. Hypothesis/opinion.
And your last two points are not anything I made comment on. I realise that this is true.

I thought your post suggested that plumbing alone has been funded because of such high demand. that was not the case. T2G was funding for employers to upskill people working for them. It wasnt funding for new starts as such, it was there to help ompanies identify skills needs within workforce
Not sure were you stand on this, do you believe we will be short of plumbers?

 

[fuzzy]

There are also plumbers trained courtesy of HMPS. I know a lot of my friends when I was younger came out qualified. But I didn't hear too much negativity about that.

there will be more negativity towards fast track than HMP because of the numbers
You cannot get a plumbing NVQ from HMP now
How many of your friends were there :shocked3:

 

[Kimou]

I thought your post suggested that plumbing alone has been funded because of such high demand. that was not the case. T2G was funding for employers to upskill people working for them. It wasnt funding for new starts as such, it was there to help ompanies identify skills needs within workforce
Not sure were you stand on this, do you believe we will be short of plumbers?

No, I realise the entitlements on the funded projects. It's stated that the applicant must be working within the field.
My stance is that plumbing has become devalued and trivialised at present, but I believe that this will create a massive problem to the public with regards to safety and property damage. I don't believe there'll be a shortage due to the current climate numbers entering the industry. And this can go different ways also, when people realise that they can't get work they'll have to try and go it alone. And that can create extreme frustration when they come against jobs that they can't solve and no one to turn to for help. The salary isn't what was advertised and it's more trouble than it's worth. These guys may bite the bullet and leave to try elsewhere.
Once we emerge from the recession people will filter back into jobs more suited than getting covered in dirt and dust. I don't think there is the realisation out there of what plumbers actually have to do to fit plumbing systems or diagnose problems. It can be easy enough, but there are so many problems which are taken care of as the norm.

My scenario, however, is based on a desperate optimistic faith that our gov't must have some form of cogent basis for allowing an accepted minimum of time and experience to pass fully qualified at the base level within the industry. And my own logic tells me that enforced legislation will create them revenue, therefore interest. And a cunning plan is to be set in motion to start regulating the industry and mitigate potential risks by way of system requirements to ensure protection of Society's health and welfare as well as the reduction of the carbon footprint. Once it's in play then plumbers will be in demand.
Maybe it's pie in the sky, but it's plausible.

 

[fuzzy]

how can the government affect time taken to become qualified? if they put a cap on it they could be accused of all sorts

 

[Kimou]

there will be more negativity towards fast track than HMP because of the numbers
You cannot get a plumbing NVQ from HMP now
How many of your friends were there :shocked3:

I didn't know they'd stopped it. I knew a few guys but they didn't keep it up once released for one reason or another. More like something to keep in line and get out on good behaviour early. Can't blame them. At least they tried to put their mind to something and give them a chance once out.

 

[fuzzy]

they still train people in prison, just they cannot get the full nvq

 

[Kimou]

how can the government affect time taken to become qualified? if they put a cap on it they could be accused of all sorts

If it isn't the gov't then who is it that sanctions the criteria need to become qualified? Ultimately the gov't must give the go-ahead by way of the entrusted body who they've installed as overseer.

 

[Kimou]

That's interesting about the NVQ. So how would they get it once released. I reckon it'll be harder for them to get a portfolio made than the fast trackers.

 

[fuzzy]

If it isn't the gov't then who is it that sanctions the criteria need to become qualified? Ultimately the gov't must give the go-ahead by way of the entrusted body who they've installed as overseer.

Ofqual - Home

 

[fuzzy]

That's interesting about the NVQ. So how would they get it once released. I reckon it'll be harder for them to get a portfolio made than the fast trackers.

thy have the same choices as everyone else, go get a job and get the qual. dont get a job dont get the qual

 

[Kimou]

It says they're the gov't regulatory body for certification. When I say gov't, it's whoever they've installed as their croney. I didn't know who that body actually was, so thanks for the info.

 

[rattler]

In Aberdeen we have ALOT of so called plumbers from poland and other eastern european countries and being honest they are dangerous.They are not trained,rip people off and yet they are usually always busy!
The government has to take the blame for that,if we went to their countries and did the same we'd be linched.
Proper training is ESSENTIAL and in my view it has to be time served,someone who is qualified in 8 weeks will come across jobs they simple have no idea about.I time served plumber will usually see a wide variety of work.But being qualified is only the start,years of EXPERIENCE is when you truly become skilled at anything.
Young kids today are lazier today,less motivated and reliable.I know people who have trained young lades and after 9-12 months they leave and start up on their own!!

 

[smudger]

I think it a shame that properly qualified and time-served plumbers are not prepared to give us older trainees a chance. Personally speaking, I have excellent general skills (tiling, plastering, general building also Part P qualified) but worked in education for 15 years (worked for general builder in teens and early 20's), also have post-grad degree in marketing for small business so I would definitely be a benefit for any small plumber/bathroom fitter. Had to stop teaching for health/sanity and family commitments so decided to retrain. I am willing to commit to an employer for at least 3-4 years to allow them to make back any money lost while I'm a bit slow and learning (done nvq2, wtaer regs & unvented but lack experience). However, as I can't find anyone to give me a start I am forced to work self-employed as I have a family and I'm not prepared to sit around on my arse, which means that I become a competitor with less overheads etc, thereby actually making the whole problem worse.

 

[SimonG]

In response to Smudger.

At the minute that is the way of the world, have you read on here about people struggling for work, people only having done one job in the last two weeks and even people looking at a career change out of plumbing!
You say you changed career for health, sanity and family. I wouldn't have picked plumbing if you were wanting to improve those.
You just chose plumbing at the wrong time, if you wound the clock back, plenty of work etc, then all this wouldn't be being discussed.
Hopefully things will pick up and the experienced guys will start to take people on, but I personally would be looking at an apprentice over somebody changing career. But this isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[smudger]

In a way I could argue that the advice given at training centres is very poor, however, for me a plumbing qualification was very much a means to an end. While, in a way, I would like to work as a plumber (heating etc) my intended niche is very much renewables and clean bathroom installs / wet rooms etc. I will do this anyway, but if nobody wants get the benefit of my experience outside of plumbing (I don't know one with my small business marketing expertise), then I will do it self-employed. It may take me a couple of years longer, but I will do it under my own company name, and I will be huge competition for anyone. A forward thinking small firm that is not so bogged down in the doom and gloom of the current market problems could get me on board now and put their plumbing skills with my business know-how and reap the benefits when it starts to pick up (which it will). Unfortunatley, the majority of plumbers (from my own limited experience) are just too small minded; as can be seen from many of the small-minded "protectionist" attitudes that I read on this site (attitudes that I don't see on the tiling or electrician sites).

 

[fuzzy]

maybe the attitudes on tiling and electrical sites are different because the trade is different or in a different position? Not all plumbers as you say would have the same attitude unless there was a reason for it surely?
protectionist? not sure you understand the points that have been made, i have heard this attitude from people who dont get their own way, im not sure any area owes you a living. I wouldnt dare do some training in another area then demand that they give me a job
Im glad that you have high opinion of your new company, begs the question why do you want to work for anyone else?

despite this i wish you the best, its not just the trade specific training thats part of your learning curve

 

[smudger]

See many pf your points Fuzzy. By protectionist I mean that some contributers seem to suggest that as they are find the market hard at the moment, that they want to actively prevent new blood (however old) from entering the market, and earning a living. Surely, we all have a right to earn a living in whatever area we choose.
As for your other point I do not expect anything at all, nobody owes me a living. If people have not offered me a start it is because I have either not "sold" myself well enough, or worked hard enough. Maybe that is because I value loyalty very highly, and I would not expect someone to train me, then set up in competition without working for some years to enable them to recoup on their investment. This would set back my own business plans. My situation is very different to the majority of new entrants who contribute to this site. I for one intend to take on a trainee at the first possible opportunity.
I also believe in a free market, there is work out there, if the service, quality, pricing and marketing is right then I believe we will all be okay.
Those that don't do a decent job, or undercut to much will fall by the wayside (and good riddance). I do agree that there has been a glut of poor quality "tradesmen" who have achieved their qualification through these fast-track shemes (I have seen first hand how poor some of the work was that passed), and hopefully the new qualification (diploma?) will prevent this from happening.
All I ask is that quality tradesman be open minded, the problem is not that there is too much competition.
I don't mean to insult or upset anyone, I have just found more negativity on this site (possibly justifiably so), whereas we need to be positive and proactive to ensure that we can all make a decent living.

 

[smudger]

Sorry Fuzzy, I did just want to comment on your final point. I have been working on a self employed basis (not too much plumbing-much of which I have passed to other plumbers as I lacked the experience to do the job properly). However, where i have struggled is how to price jobs, paperwork etc all the other things that go with it.
Also, due to my family situation, I could really do with a job where i get home at a decent time and not have to spend all evening working (as I have had to do for the last 20 years). So for the next 5 years I would happily give up my business plans and give my experience to someone else.

 

[smudger]

In response to Smudger.

At the minute that is the way of the world, have you read on here about people struggling for work, people only having done one job in the last two weeks and even people looking at a career change out of plumbing!
You say you changed career for health, sanity and family. I wouldn't have picked plumbing if you were wanting to improve those.
You just chose plumbing at the wrong time, if you wound the clock back, plenty of work etc, then all this wouldn't be being discussed.
Hopefully things will pick up and the experienced guys will start to take people on, but I personally would be looking at an apprentice over somebody changing career. But this isn't going to happen any time soon.

Fair point Simon. And as soon as I can take someone on I will look for an apprentice not someone like me.

 

[fuzzy]

good luck with your search smudger