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gaspastemania

have decided today today that i am not going to have an apprentice or help train any older trainee ever again , reasons are future competition for work and jobs , prices have come down due to a massive influx of so called plumbers /heating engineers. getting fed up of working for pittance due to the overdose of plumbers and not enough work .
My theory dont train anyone and hopefully the good old days will slowly return where i can once again lift a floorboard up and give the old 'dont like the look of that ' waffle!!

rant over ,,,,,HARUMPH !!
 
Don't have the time or inclination or money to train somebody else. Get letters all the time, but to be honest, based on the content of 99.9% I don't know how people can send them out.
It's difficult because it would be good to 'give' something back to the industry but................

Time may change things. :)
 
Don't have the time or inclination or money to train somebody else. Get letters all the time, but to be honest, based on the content of 99.9% I don't know how people can send them out.
It's difficult because it would be good to 'give' something back to the industry but................

Time may change things. :)

I recieved an Email yesterday and the guy used text speak to write it.
 
ive had a few emails and calls and every single one of them was so rude!!! lol terrible writing, terrible grammar, terrible phone manner and most literally just expecting me to hand them something on a plate!!! Drives me potty. i even had somebodys mum phone me on his behalf!!! lazy little .........................and breathe!!
 
ive had a few emails and calls and every single one of them was so rude!!! lol terrible writing, terrible grammar, terrible phone manner and most literally just expecting me to hand them something on a plate!!! Drives me potty. i even had somebodys mum phone me on his behalf!!! lazy little .........................and breathe!!

ive had someones mum phone me before i didnt even entertain the phone call when she said she was phoneing on behalf of her son..................if he cant be bothered to call himself what does that say................
 
that says that he will work until lunch time the first day and disappear
 
i was, it'll be what are you doing that for? which one is the adjustable? oops.
 
You probably don't want to hear from me then people but I'm looking for someone to take me on as an apprentice. I'd be willing to work with you for a couple of weeks without pay in order to alay any fears that I'd me messing you around or that I wasn't committed (I don't know what the legalities are but I'm desperate to get a foot in the door) I've put a post on the main forum looking for anyone taking on apprentices in the Manchester area. I'm 28 and looking to change career. I'm starting an evening basic plumbing skills course at Stockport college in September but I'm really eager to get some experience and be able to do my NVQs. I know that its a long road and hard work but I can guarantee that anyone taking me on would not have to worry about me being unreliable or work shy, and I'd never get my Mum to ring you either!
 
My point exactly , this is why ther trade is in the doldrums !! training the competition and to many wanting career changes . Im serious as to not given any oppotunity to train or advise anyone getting fed up with working for not alot due to a case of plumbing overload
 
Fair enough mate, if thats how you see things then I don't blame you for having that opinion. It'd be a bit of an early start for me getting to Devon from Manchester everyday anyway. Only messing, but seriously I hope things pick up for you soon and your point of view is able to change as its decent plumbers like yourself that guys like me need!
 
imdoing a plumbing course and called people and now just doing building labouring but getting experience of plumbing bricklaying chippy work and anything else that may help me to gain knowledge maybe some people are worth giving that chance to and will do anything asked to succeed i started off doing it for free just so i can get what i want
 
imdoing a plumbing course and called people and now just doing building labouring but getting experience of plumbing bricklaying chippy work and anything else that may help me to gain knowledge maybe some people are worth giving that chance to and will do anything asked to succeed i started off doing it for free just so i can get what i want

You might want to spend some of your wages on Capital Letters, commas, full stops etc! There's nothing more likely to make me file a C.V. in the bin than the badly spelled, badly punctuated guff that I seem to get on a weekly basis. And don't get me started on the phone calls that begin with "My lad is looking for some work as a plumber........"
 
why complicate things?.
back in the 80's, 'giz a job' was enough.lol.
 
Five years ago I was looking for someone to give me a chance of on the job experience. I wrote something like 50 letters offering to work for free and didn't even receive a reply from 99% of them. A few wrote back to inform me of the challenges they were having finding enough work for themselves and it helped me greatly to understand their situation.

In the end I telephoned a few plumbers and invited them out to the pub for a free lunch so that they could meet me and see how much I wanted this and that I am noy a shirker. It cost me three lunches, two explained that they didn't have enough work and both were really nice guys. The third gave me a chance for a week. After four weeks he started to give me a few quid now and again to help with travel expenses. We are now best mates and still work together on big jobs.

I hope my experience helps some of you new guys.
 
Haha, I like the fact two accepted your offer of a free lunch just to say no.

I too have been asked by people on behalf of their children. I might start saying, "Hmm, maybe. I'll get my mother to give you a decision shortly."

I suspect this situation will sort itself out because the vast majority of people who do short plumbing courses will be unable and unwilling to attempt to go out on their own with no further experience (I certainly wasn't. I was desperate for experience, going to all sorts of measures and quite depressed, but still not willing in the least to try on my own.) At the moment it's like an invasion (of which I was a part some 2 years ago) but given that as far as I know the new courses require you to have work placement before admission (?) and that there literally aren't anywhere near enough companies looking to take people on to meet the demand needing exprience the tide will surely roll back after time. The system will be self-culling. The only question is how long and how much damage will be done in the meantime ...
 
When I was doing my ACS, I asked a "mate" of mine that I've worked with before (wet plumbing) to let me come with him for free for my portfolio. He said he wasn't doing a lot of gas but would let me know when a gas job came up and I could help out. Kept phoning him up, "Nowt on at the mo pal" he says. Turns out he was doing loads of gas work but must have been worried I was going to take some of his business, which I would never have done by the way! I eventually got with a brilliant bloke who took the time to answer questions and explain stuff that i was struggling with. My "mate" then phoned me up as he had lost his monkey (treated him like :001_9898: once too often) and was struggling to finish a job. I told him I'd help him out........ for ÂŁ200 a day seeing as I'm now Gas safe reg. "I thought we were mates!" he says. "We were!" I said. Karma can be a biatch!!
 
I'd like to hypothesise further on Watertight's idea about it ebbiing back. Although on a slightly different tack. It's more in line with the capitalist's intervention. Seeing that the fast tracking is down to companies making a quick buck, and the industry is reacting negatively to this by way of not showing much interest in newly emerging plumbers, then the entrepreneurial response would be to create centres soley for gaining experience. At a fee, of course.

How many old plumbers are there expressing concern about their health and the business? If they were offered a nine to five in a cosy little set-up, decent wage, time off etc... to do demos and supervise set projects, then I'm sure there would be takers or retired folk who just want something do. A chap recently commented on getting back on the tools cz he didn't want the orange overall of BQ. I believe these courses are here to stay. They have a big marketing presence and people buy into media frenzies and advertisements. There are always going to be casualties when industrial sectors evolve into multifaceted version of itself.

My opinion on the matter is this- A huge amount of money is being spent on fast track by the public. The industry rejects them. The public complain. The government sets up an independent review. Assessment deems industry is being prejudiced. SME's get sued for discrimination. Fast track qualification is accepted. In the next generation there will be fast tracked engineers will overtake time served engineers and be employing more people and running more businesses due to the input/output rate. Consider this as an example:
Apprentice scheme:
Year 1- 500 in. 0 out
Fast track scheme:
Year 1- 500 in. 400 out

So follow that ratio until year 5 and you see what I'm getting at. Fast trackers may be in the position to reject time -erved apps as a way of getting their own back...Ultimately, it's the Chaos Theory of plumbing.
 
I am taking the fast track as its called yet i work 10 hours a day monday to friday and spend at least 4 hours a day studying 6 days a week is this really a fast way of learning.
Also i qualified as a chef in 18 months and succeeded very well just the industry killed itself leaving me to want a career in something else i had a greater interest in.
All i wanted was abit of help and support from someone qualified in the industry and found it hard to get every one complains about these so called fast track learning yet if people are prepared to spend alot of money surely they are worth investing some of your time and knowledge who knows one day you may need them for a helping hand and you will know that they have been taught correctly because i know that qualifications are worth nothing compared to experience and knowledge
 
I dont mind giving anyone advice if asked and i know the answer but at this moment in time i will not take on any plumber for a week or two weeks or even permanent as at this moment in time i feel its training future competition . Hopefully a fair few of the numpties that a re currently operating out there will go under . E.g came across an install by a friend whom i have worked with and who had done a short course in plumbing .He started trading as his own business half way through his second year and his workmanship is still very apprentice like , shocking to say least !!
 
Yeah i totally agree yet you and every other person was a beginner at some point and dont you think every one deserves the chance,every person who learns a new trade is competition no matter the industry but i bet someone gave you that chance/opportunity when you first started.
 
When i started it was 1990 and there was 3 people in my college class as no one wanted to be a plumber , i would say it went on like that for about 10 years where no one found plumbing in vogue . Money was still mediocre as well then the press came along plumbers earning 70 k a year be your own boss , learn plumbing in 8 weeks etc .i spent 4 tears in college doing lead work , heating , domestic cold water supply , drainage , gas , advanced draingage sanitation , fire fighting sprinkler systems , pipefitting etc , now i dont believe that fast trakers are doing anything like that sort of training .
In fairness tho i speak to other trades and they say same as plumbers to many painters, plasterers etc .
Training centers diminish trades are after your money and dont honestly paint the real picture for anyone.
if you want to change jobs then no problem but i personally wont help newbies to get work in current climate although happy to advise ......maybe lol
 
Sorry mate but that's something that gets on my nerves, no-one deserves anything. Life just isn't like that.
I was offered an apprenticeship because the firm realised they needed an extra pair of hands due to an increase in workload and one of the old boys was coming to the end of his working life. It was a business decision, not a service to society.
 
Fast trackers...mmm

Go back 30 years or so when the retrainers stated to come through from the heavy industries shut down by the Tories. Although they were employed then, most tradesmen felt an open resentment to someone, as was thought, who had taken the shortcut to be on the same money as they were with little experience and knowledge. No traditional plumbers mates positions for these guys, they were straight onto the full rate. This wasn't right as there were tried and tested traditional ways into any trade and this wasn't one of them. It took a long time for the good ones to get accepted but they were eventually.

Jump forward 20 years and the building game is booming once more. Repeated calls in the press of how you can never get a plumber and how they are all making 60k a year.
Now this is where the tried and tested ways of recruitment does not fit with the modern way of everything now thinking. We need more plumbers now was the cry and the traditional way of recruiting took too long. (it didn't really).
People were starting to realise the university education may not be for everyone or all it was cracked up to be and were believing the hype of the press.
The fast tack industry cranked up to full swing to fill the gaps and the dreams of many.

Out of desperation for an extra pair of hands and possibly a bit of self greed, many se guys took on the fast trackers and helped train them up but at the same time the established firms and responsible se's took on more apprentices or mates in the traditional way to cope with the demand. The fast trackers were mainly on a route to self employment and once trained were in competition. Not too much of a problem because we have more work than we can cope with even though every fast tracker became a competitor.

Then the bubble burst (once again) and this one is as bad as any ever was. Back to the recessions times. Everyone is short of work and there is an over supply of plumbers, good and bad.
Everyone including the fast track industry is feeling the pinch. Many fast track places fail but the smart ones continue to operate praying on the unwary with false hopes and promises churning out junk.

The regulatory bodies finally realise what is happening and change the rules but the fast track industry exploit the loopholes.
Then we get more (most, because they are really unemployable) people willing to work for free to get the experience needed! The ones who may have offered that in the past have now realised the error of their ways. Too many guys chasing too many jobs. Prices being depressed to 1990 levels. Most barely scraping an existance. It is not happening. Why should it happen or ever did?
Now anyone coming fresh into this game as a fast tracker may think we are all a bunch of ****s who want to run a closed shop but that is not the case. The point is we now have a massive oversubscription to this trade.

Fast trackers affect every one of us (even the previous fast trackers).
It affects the self employed guys because every fast tracker is a direct competition as no one will employ them.
It affects the employed guys because their firms workload is diminishing as they can't compete due to higher overheads thus putting their jobs at risk.
It affects the public perception of the trade because of the amount of badly trained unskilled operatives.

As Hybrid said no one deserves anything. You paid your money but you should have though about things more.
This trade along with all the others has always been self regulating of the workforce. When times are good more staff are recruited and when times are bad they are not with natural wastage filling the gaps.
Fast tracking has upset this balance and is now driving wages down due to over supply.
If things continue the way they are going plumbers may be lucky to earn above minimum wage in a few years time.
I'm sure that is not what you spent your cash for and it is not what i signed up for. I and many more like me have paid too much from my body for it to come to that.
 
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Tamz has sewn it up pretty accurately on how and why things have come to pass. I like and agree with that summation. The only issue that keeps niggling me about being against the actual competency of fast trackers method is new practices. Materials are designed in such a way thsat anyone can fit them. Before plumbing was a craft. Now it is not. It's more of a science, technical. The installation techniques can and will be learnt on a job. The most important part of plumbing now is the theory; regulations; pipe sizing; systems designs for efficiency, which is learnt in college or an institution. This can be referred to when doing exterior work.

How much need is there really for apprenticeship? I'm not convinced there is. It helps of course, and the app trained plumber will have his little bag of tricks and may know from experience the best way to do something cz he's been bonked on the head with a spanner too many times to forget it and this is a good thing, but not essential. We have easy access to find out how to achieve something.
Like here for example. It's more worrying to me that there are complaints about competition, yet anyone who asks about plumbing(not gas) gets a full succinct description on how to do it. They may achieve a final working product, but to what cost? Is their client going to die of legionella pneumophilia because someone tapped into a feed from the anti parasitic trap from a cylinder because they don't know the full regs and why they are there? And much more besides. All someone needs to do is get themselves a few compression or pushfit fittings and the job is done. And we taken the ability for someone to earn who is correct for the job. This is ok on some things although not all. I for one am not going to give advice so completely anymore and will be more guarded for those reasons.

I worked for developers and was horrified at what they do. Everything is covered up so you can't see the appauling workmanship but it works, it's hidden and no one's the wiser. I've been taught to take pride in what you hide. 5 mtr runs of about 10 pipes, no clips bundled twisting together on each other, no joke; it looked like I was viewing stranded flex electrical cable under a microscope. I'm just saying that there are more charlatans out there than people who are fresh with the spec tech in their minds and can do the job safely but a little shaky on cnfidence.

Another issue I have which is more pertinent is that gas fitters come out of college after a short stint and claim to be plumbers. I got asked to jump on a job whith somesuch fellow and they didn't have a clue. One of them tee'd into a waste outside for the new shower waste I run and told him where to connect. After I asked him what he done with the existing waste and he said "nothing". He was prepared to leave an open waste under the shower with no regard to future flooding vapours explosions etc. Saying we weren't taught plumbing in the centre. Scary. Lucky I thought to ask. Anyway, I done most of the work, the job was a ballsup in the end cz I couldn't do everything in the timespan and redone many things but not all. We had deadlines, but the guy left me there on my own cz he had 'guitar practice'???? WTF? hmm, thinking about that makes me change my mind again on importance of apprenticeship. At least they have an ingrained love and loyalty for the trade.

Just a point if view. I'm ambivalent to the matter at the mo.
 
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You probably don't want to hear from me then people but I'm looking for someone to take me on as an apprentice. I'd be willing to work with you for a couple of weeks without pay in order to alay any fears that I'd me messing you around or that I wasn't committed (I don't know what the legalities are but I'm desperate to get a foot in the door) I've put a post on the main forum looking for anyone taking on apprentices in the Manchester area. I'm 28 and looking to change career. I'm starting an evening basic plumbing skills course at Stockport college in September but I'm really eager to get some experience and be able to do my NVQs. I know that its a long road and hard work but I can guarantee that anyone taking me on would not have to worry about me being unreliable or work shy, and I'd never get my Mum to ring you either!

Lol is yer mum fit and single cos she can ring me if she wants!!!!!!!!!!!!!

being serious though I love having loveslaves as being a confirmed sadist it is much easier if they are confirmed masochits.

Also thinking about it any loveslave who can survive a couple of weeks with me deserves to be my competition in the future
 
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If taking on an apprentice is helping the competition or not worth it as fast tracking is no point then i guess when you all retire there will no longer be plumbers because no one will give any one a chance oh dear lets hope no other trade thinks like this
 
If taking on an apprentice is helping the competition or not worth it as fast tracking is no point then i guess when you all retire there will no longer be plumbers because no one will give any one a chance oh dear lets hope no other trade thinks like this

I couldn't really give a monkeys if there's no plumbers when I retire. :) At the moment its a simple case of economics, and mine are purely concerned with my family and my lifestyle. As time goes by and my roof over my head is secure, then I may consider taking on an apprentice. But at the moment I don't feel the need to train somebody to be directly in competition with me at some point. It's simple business acumen/common sense. The imbalance will address itself in time, the good guys will continue and the bad ones will either be stacking shelves in Morrisons or in jail having killed somebody through their poor work.

I have three kids who think the world owes them everything, so there'll be no tears over people who think there not getting a fair shake of the dice, because they can't get onto that first rung of the plumbing ladder.

Rant Over.
 
so who is going to give your kids the chance if everyone has the same attitude as you
 
If taking on an apprentice is helping the competition or not worth it as fast tracking is no point then i guess when you all retire there will no longer be plumbers because no one will give any one a chance oh dear lets hope no other trade thinks like this

Well form what i heard on the radio this morning learning to be a plumber only takes 8 weeks to be fully trained. So that confirms no point in training anyone as it onlt takes 8 weeks at college ,,,,,aparently!!!!!
 
so who is going to give your kids the chance if everyone has the same attitude as you

lol, That's not for me to worry about, at 17, 19 and 26 they'll find their own chances, doing better things than me.
 
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