Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[Reza]

Please see following, an email which I received from the HSE. Colleagues, we need to make a tough stance in demanding for reassessment of these farcical, non coherent and ineffective regulations. On one hand they say we need NOT be GSRed to do works for friends and family on the other hand they require us to complete the benchmark with full details of GSRed installer!! Please help us stand against these daft rules, sign our petition, let’s take this all the way. Reform Gas Safety in UK Petition

Hi Reza,

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you last night, but you caught me when I was just on my way out of the office.

In terms of the current definition of competence this is captured in COP 20 (see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/cop20.pdf) - COP20 will be withdrawn as part of the current ACOP review but will be replaced by industry led guidance.

The majority of this definition has been transferred into the new revised L56 (see para 58 of the revised L56) - so it hasn't really changed as a result of the ACOP review.

As we discussed yesterday - although everyone who carries out gas work needs to be competent (see the new para 57 of the revised L56), only those who are a gas engineering business need to be registered with Gas Safe Register (see paragraphs 65 & 66 of the new revised L56).

This position has not changed as a result of the ACOP review. The underlying legislation (the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) only require gas engineering businesses (which include the self-employed and sole traders) to be competent AND registered (see regulation 3(3)). Those who are not acting as gas engineering businesses (for example DIY, favours fro friends etc) are only required to be competent. They do not need to be GSR registered.

I know that you and your group find this position incongruous - however the legislation (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) are not subject to this review and are not being changed. The Approved Code of Practice and it associated guidance cannot go beyond the scope of the legislation itself, and so we cannot insist that engineers carrying out DIY/favours for friends should be registered as well as competent.

I hope this has helped to explain our current position but if you need anything else then please let me know.

 

[heliotrope]

Please see following, an email which I received from the HSE. Colleagues, we need to make a tough stance in demanding for reassessment of these farcical, non coherent and ineffective regulations. On one hand they say we need NOT be GSRed to do works for friends and family on the other hand they require us to complete the benchmark with full details of GSRed installer!! Please help us stand against these daft rules, sign our petition, let’s take this all the way. Reform Gas Safety in UK Petition

Hi Reza,

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you last night, but you caught me when I was just on my way out of the office.

In terms of the current definition of competence this is captured in COP 20 (see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/cop20.pdf) - COP20 will be withdrawn as part of the current ACOP review but will be replaced by industry led guidance.

The majority of this definition has been transferred into the new revised L56 (see para 58 of the revised L56) - so it hasn't really changed as a result of the ACOP review.

As we discussed yesterday - although everyone who carries out gas work needs to be competent (see the new para 57 of the revised L56), only those who are a gas engineering business need to be registered with Gas Safe Register (see paragraphs 65 & 66 of the new revised L56).

This position has not changed as a result of the ACOP review. The underlying legislation (the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) only require gas engineering businesses (which include the self-employed and sole traders) to be competent AND registered (see regulation 3(3)). Those who are not acting as gas engineering businesses (for example DIY, favours fro friends etc) are only required to be competent. They do not need to be GSR registered.

I know that you and your group find this position incongruous - however the legislation (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) are not subject to this review and are not being changed. The Approved Code of Practice and it associated guidance cannot go beyond the scope of the legislation itself, and so we cannot insist that engineers carrying out DIY/favours for friends should be registered as well as competent.

I hope this has helped to explain our current position but if you need anything else then please let me know.

Clear as mud. Thanks.

 

[peteheat]

Obviously all the contributing parties and the residents in neighbouring properties use oil or renewable energy for hot water and central heating.

The reason I say this is because they will never be at risk from the efforts of a Diy, Friend, or person doing a favour working on what is possibly
the only explosive substance allowed into business premises and private homes.

Just in case other Irish RGI's think this will not effect them remember where the standards we use come from, Copy and Paste has been the art
form of every government office for years and our Energy Regulator is no different to other Govt. offices.

If anything this should be seen as an opportunity to clarify one question that always appears open to debate, Nobody should remove the cover
from a gas boiler.

Private home owners and business premises owners Must Ensure the minimum service they have carried out at least once a year is a Gas Safety
Check by a registered RGI, failure to do so will result in removal of the gas service from that building.

I for one recognise the potential dangers from a gas installation, maybe it's time those in power do so as well.

 

[Reza]

Obviously all the contributing parties and the residents in neighbouring properties use oil or renewable energy for hot water and central heating.

The reason I say this is because they will never be at risk from the efforts of a Diy, Friend, or person doing a favour working on what is possibly
the only explosive substance allowed into business premises and private homes.

Just in case other Irish RGI's think this will not effect them remember where the standards we use come from, Copy and Paste has been the art
form of every government office for years and our Energy Regulator is no different to other Govt. offices.

If anything this should be seen as an opportunity to clarify one question that always appears open to debate, Nobody should remove the cover
from a gas boiler.

Private home owners and business premises owners Must Ensure the minimum service they have carried out at least once a year is a Gas Safety
Check by a registered RGI, failure to do so will result in removal of the gas service from that building.

I for one recognise the potential dangers from a gas installation, maybe it's time those in power do so as well.

That's very interesting, is what your saying defined as a Gas Safety Regulation in Ireland! If so we need to know more!

 

[Reza]

Clear as mud. Thanks.

Basically it means people who are deemed as competent can work on Gas installation for own, friends and family without the need to be Gas Safe Registered. So long as they are not treating it as business.

 

[Reza]

Your next question may be; what's the definition of competent in this context! Well competency has been defined under COP20 but in reality it would be what's required to get you through registration with the Gas Safe Register. My problem with this is not so much from the safety aspect, as the competent person should work in a safe manner, my issue is that this can well be the pretext to illegal gas works. If an installer fits a boiler say, then he or she needs to fill the commissioning record, now part of this would be to record installers details as well as his Gas Safe Registration number. A non Gas Safe Registered person would probably have to leave this important part of the work. Do we want to go on promoting this scenario in our industry!

 

[peteheat]

That's very interesting, is what your saying defined as a Gas Safety Regulation in Ireland! If so we need to know more!

No, but if the friend, DIY etc is accepted in the UK I expect Ireland will not be far behind as most regulations here follow or copy those in the UK.

 

[Reza]

No, but if the friend, DIY etc is accepted in the UK I expect Ireland will not be far behind as most regulations here follow or copy those in the UK.

Actually this regulation has always been as such but the new version of the L56 puts it in a clearer terms, now some people think that's a good thing but I think it's a disaster waiting to happen!

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

The current ACOP and previous versions of the ACOP have always mention DIY gas work in various parts of the document including the Introduction. It is not new.

In the legislation there is just one line about competency and it is not defined - so lots of people use this to justify their DIY.

As I have already said the new ACOP is a great improvement on the previous because it does define DIY - I think it says you must have completed formal training such that you could be GSR if you were to apply.

I think the new ACOP essentially makes it clear that 95% of people who do DIY are not competent in a legal defined way and would therefore DIY would be illegal.

Here is the full relevant text from the new DRAFT ACOP

"
57 Anyone who works on a gas fitting.... Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence.
58 Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge, experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice.
60 Gas work should not be undertaken except:

• a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work must be recognised by the industry’s Standards Setting Authority. or
• b) in the case of a previously Registered person, they have proved competence through a Certification Scheme. or
• c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence.
  61 Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling, of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of associated services, such as water and electricity, of the dangers they may give rise to and the precautions to take.

• 
  
  The consultation is now - ends July, the new ACOP will be inplace by end of the year so I encourae everyone to let HSE know their views.
  
  The point Reza is making is about changing the GAS regs. This is not part of the consultation, it is not what the ACOP can do.
  
  Changing the gas regs might be a good idea but how long will it take? Years? How difficult to acheive - might be impossible. Where as better ACOP is possible within a few months.
  
  This wording in the ACOP will make it clear that gas safe work without training and qualifications is illegal.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Are you aware of how widely it is posted across the internet that DIY is OK?
Implying that you just need to be competent and competent is not defined...
I have even read some people on diynot claim that the Gas Regs onlly apply to people at work (because part of Health & Safety) and not to people in their own home

It will be good to point to this and say competency is defined.
Note - it always was, but in another hard to read HSE document.

 

[Reza]

The current ACOP and previous versions of the ACOP have always mention DIY gas work in various parts of the document including the Introduction. It is not new.

In the legislation there is just one line about competency and it is not defined - so lots of people use this to justify their DIY.

As I have already said the new ACOP is a great improvement on the previous because it does define DIY - I think it says you must have completed formal training such that you could be GSR if you were to apply.

I think the new ACOP essentially makes it clear that 95% of people who do DIY are not competent in a legal defined way and would therefore DIY would be illegal.

Here is the full relevant text from the new DRAFT ACOP


The consultation is now - ends July, the new ACOP will be inplace by end of the year so I encourae everyone to let HSE know their views.

The point Reza is making is about changing the GAS regs. This is not part of the consultation, it is not what the ACOP can do.

Changing the gas regs might be a good idea but how long will it take? Years? How difficult to acheive - might be impossible. Where as better ACOP is possible within a few months.

This wording in the ACOP will make it clear that gas safe work without training and qualifications is illegal.[/FONT]
[/LIST]

This is very true, I am looking for reassessment and reform of the regulations. Many parts of current regulation are farcical and incoherent. I demand clarity and practicality. You can't say a non GSR fitter can fit a boiler and then expect for all commissioning documents to be filled in its entirety, any more than you can sell boilers to general public (primary legislation) and expect only Gas competent people to install them. There are far too many loopholes in the regulations which creates the ground work for illegal Gas works today. HSE's own estimate is 250,000 illegal Gas work per year and rising. You need to have a chat with some of these National Grid guys who day and night are calling at sites where they discover Gas pipework done in plastic, garden hose, or capping Gas downstream using a carrot. STOP this silliness for God sake, people are loosing their lives and hard working installers are loosing their jobs up and down the country. Help us for a change, if there enough of us, then we can even change the primary legislation. Take part in our petition today. Reform Gas Safety in UK Petition

 

[Reza]

Are you aware of how widely it is posted across the internet that DIY is OK?
Implying that you just need to be competent and competent is not defined...
I have even read some people on diynot claim that the Gas Regs onlly apply to people at work (because part of Health & Safety) and not to people in their own home

It will be good to point to this and say competency is defined.
Note - it always was, but in another hard to read HSE document.

I have been specifically told by HSE that our current government is sticking with their deregulation strategy, but if there are enough people calling for change, well, anything is possible.

 

[Reza]

Here's a post that just went on our forum (Gas Engineers Forum on Facebook);


"I was told the other day about a Worcester engineer telling a customer she need a new boiler ,he and his mate could do it at weekend if she was interested"

 

[Reg Man]

Here's a post that just went on our forum (Gas Engineers Forum on Facebook);


"I was told the other day about a Worcester engineer telling a customer she need a new boiler ,he and his mate could do it at weekend if she was interested"

In this circumstance, the offer to fit a boiler at the weekend, is most likely an Illegal offer unless either of the fitters are registered in their own right.

 

[Reza]

In this circumstance, the offer to fit a boiler at the weekend, is most likely an Illegal offer unless either of the fitters are registered in their own right.

This is a very real scenario and a common occurrence phill. I bet WB wouldn't stand for that, for that reason it's wrong and even though it may still be safe, but it's damaging to business. Question; If she accepts and they take the job on, who would fill the benchmark and whose Gas Safe Registration would go on this record!

Helplink, BG, Worc...... They're all at it. Doing illegal weekender's and GS do nothing about it.

The L56 says that's ok, so long as they are only doing this for friends and family and so long as no money changes hand. Now can you see a potential problem round your area! Cos sure as hell I can see plenty round mine!

No registration, no insurance, no van or diesel to pay for, fittings and pipe probably stolen from their employers. There's no wonder they can do it cheap - what chance do the rest of us have?

Gas Safe Registration is not the ultimate reference but its the next best thing that ties everything together. The fitters can be traced through the system if necessary, which is why the regulation in its current format is flawed.

The other thing is guys, say the WB installers do the work, whilst at the site, they discover signs of CO at the front room where the Gas fire is. What now! Who will ID the installation and send RIDDOR notification!​

 

[Reg Man]

I don't think there is to much wrong with the current legislation. If you put a blanket "you must be registered and competent to carry out gas work" it would be unfair to those gas fitters who are employed by a registered business during the week and are registered operatives, who would then not be legally able to fit a boiler in their own home. "benchmark" is not a legal requirement, its an industry wish, to encourage good practice.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Please see following, an email which I received from the HSE. Colleagues, we need to make a tough stance in demanding for reassessment of these farcical, non coherent and ineffective regulations. On one hand they say we need NOT be GSRed to do works for friends and family on the other hand they require us to complete the benchmark with full details of GSRed installer!! Please help us stand against these daft rules, sign our petition, let’s take this all the way. Reform Gas Safety in UK Petition

Hi Reza,

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you last night, but you caught me when I was just on my way out of the office.

In terms of the current definition of competence this is captured in COP 20 (see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/cop20.pdf) - COP20 will be withdrawn as part of the current ACOP review but will be replaced by industry led guidance.

The majority of this definition has been transferred into the new revised L56 (see para 58 of the revised L56) - so it hasn't really changed as a result of the ACOP review.

As we discussed yesterday - although everyone who carries out gas work needs to be competent (see the new para 57 of the revised L56), only those who are a gas engineering business need to be registered with Gas Safe Register (see paragraphs 65 & 66 of the new revised L56).

This position has not changed as a result of the ACOP review. The underlying legislation (the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) only require gas engineering businesses (which include the self-employed and sole traders) to be competent AND registered (see regulation 3(3)). Those who are not acting as gas engineering businesses (for example DIY, favours fro friends etc) are only required to be competent. They do not need to be GSR registered.

I know that you and your group find this position incongruous - however the legislation (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) are not subject to this review and are not being changed. The Approved Code of Practice and it associated guidance cannot go beyond the scope of the legislation itself, and so we cannot insist that engineers carrying out DIY/favours for friends should be registered as well as competent.

I hope this has helped to explain our current position but if you need anything else then please let me know.

the only competent person in the regs is the one that is a gas safe register and has past acs

 

[Reza]

I don't think there is to much wrong with the current legislation. If you put a blanket "you must be registered and competent to carry out gas work" it would be unfair to those gas fitters who are employed by a registered business during the week and are registered operatives, who would then not be legally able to fit a boiler in their own home. "benchmark" is not a legal requirement, its an industry wish, to encourage good practice.

People who want to do this as an extra activity to their employment should get a registration card of their own and also a cover for PL insurance. Oh and declare extra earnings to HMRC for separate contribution, ie income tax and NI.

 

[Reza]

Benchmark is not a legal requirement but to register the boiler with the authorities is. How is this possible with no Gas Safe Registration number! How would you report a RIDDOR if and when needed to!

 

[Reza]

the only competent person in the regs is the one that is a gas safe register and has past acs

That's how it should be but isn't!

 

[Reg Man]

Benchmark is not a legal requirement but to register the boiler with the authorities is. How is this possible with no Gas Safe Registration number! How would you report a RIDDOR if and when needed to!

You go directly to your local authority and register the work for building regulations. Your not going to be RIDDOR reporting something in your own house and because its a competent gas fitter doing his own gas work he has no requirement because its not at his place of work.

 

[Reza]

You go directly to your local authority and register the work for building regulations. Your not going to be RIDDOR reporting something in your own house and because its a competent gas fitter doing his own gas work he has no requirement because its not at his place of work.

But this is not just limited to own. It also applies to friends and family and let's face it, everyone could be classed as friends. So far you've stated that commissioning record is not a legal requirement and that you don't have to report dangerous Gas occurrence for own. I am interested to know how you'd handle this situation! Suppose you fit a boiler in a "mate's" house then you discover signs of spillage in the front room against which you'd have to ID the appliance. How would you go about doing this process without having the one ref that ties everything together, i.e your Gas Safe Registration number!

 

[Reg Man]

But this is not just limited to own. It also applies to friends and family and let's face it, everyone could be classed as friends. So far you've stated that commissioning record is not a legal requirement and that you don't have to report dangerous Gas occurrence for own. I am interested to know how you'd handle this situation! Suppose you fit a boiler in a "mate's" house then you discover signs of spillage in the front room against which you'd have to ID the appliance. How would you go about doing this process without having the one ref that ties everything together, i.e your Gas Safe Registration number!

Your not at work so RIDDOR don't apply. Your only at work when employed or self employed. Thiis is a DIY job carried out by a competent person.

 

[Reza]

Wow, the nation will be safe in your hands won't they!!!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Your not at work so RIDDOR don't apply. Your only at work when employed or self employed. Thiis is a DIY job carried out by a competent person.

such a thing does not exist !!! not in my training centre when i did my acs ! every person that does gas must be competent
and then competent person is the one that has done acs and is gsr only , if person is gsr under company he/she then does not have the right to do any other gas work does not matter who for if its not work that the business is employed to do

 

[SafeGasInstall]

But this is not just limited to own. It also applies to friends and family and let's face it, everyone could be classed as friends. So far you've stated that commissioning record is not a legal requirement and that you don't have to report dangerous Gas occurrence for own. I am interested to know how you'd handle this situation! Suppose you fit a boiler in a "mate's" house then you discover signs of spillage in the front room against which you'd have to ID the appliance. How would you go about doing this process without having the one ref that ties everything together, i.e your Gas Safe Registration number!

this is not recognised situation as work for a friend without gain payment ! payment or not payment you were the last man there therefore if you have been employed to do work on that appliance even safety check then its your responsibility if your mates family die , dont matter who has fitted it

 

[Reza]

this is not recognised situation as work for a friend without gain payment ! payment or not payment you were the last man there therefore if you have been employed to do work on that appliance even safety check then its your responsibility if your mates family die , dont matter who has fitted it

It seems that some people are perfectly happy to do work at mate's house and when they come across a dangerous situation, to avoid following procedure as it's a mate house so it wouldn't matter. No sir, the better way to conduct as a professional is to obtain a consent from the employer, then apply for registration and pay your dues like ever other earner. That way, when there is an accident or a case of negligence, they too can be traced and be prepared to stand and dance like the rest of us have to.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

sure everyone will do the walk to the prison no matter has he been paid for or not , should a fatality happen !

 

[Masood]

such a thing does not exist !!! not in my training centre when i did my acs ! every person that does gas must be competent
and then competent person is the one that has done acs and is gsr only

Sorry Stan, but you've been told wrong. If you read the current ACOPS document (L56), the definition of competency has no requirement for formal training, nor registration. This is not a good thing, but it most definitely does exist. The revisions in the consultation documents go some way towards tightening this up, but still don't list ACS or GSR as mandatory requirements.

 

[Reza]

Sorry Stan, but you've been told wrong. If you read the current ACOPS document (L56), the definition of competency has no requirement for formal training, nor registration. This is not a good thing, but it most definitely does exist. The revisions in the consultation documents go some way towards tightening this up, but still don't list ACS or GSR as mandatory requirements.

The definition of competency is given in COP20 not the L56. Secondly the initial and revised version both are flawed no matter how they present the point across. Registering with Gas Safe Register must be the only way to work with Gas as an engineer. It only cost a minimal amount to register as a second employment anyway, those who don't and give the excuse of the regulation, have something to hide.

 

[Masood]

The definition of competency is given in COP20 not the L56.

So it is. And so what? That doesn't change the fact that competency is not currently defined as having passed ACS and being GSR. No amount of wishing or insisting will make that so. That definition does not exist at present.

Secondly the initial and revised version both are flawed no matter how they present the point across. Registering with Gas Safe Register must be the only way to work with Gas as an engineer.

Not many would disagree with you that the definitions are flawed.

those who don't and give the excuse of the regulation, have something to hide.

Maybe, maybe not.

People have different reasons for doing DIY work. Not all do it for money, some do it for the satisfaction. When all's said and done, gas safety to the level required by GSR is really not rocket science. I know GSRs who are thick as p*gs&^t but are good at what they do because they learnt by repetition. They have no understanding of why they
are doing it a certain way, they just do it out of habit. And there are engineers who have never taken an ACS assessment, who know more than you and I will ever learn about gas. They are the people who write the regulations. Who is to say they couldn't safely fit a boiler?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

So it is. And so what? That doesn't change the fact that competency is not currently defined as having passed ACS and being GSR. No amount of wishing or insisting will make that so. That definition does not exist at present.



Not many would disagree with you that the definitions are flawed.



Maybe, maybe not.

People have different reasons for doing DIY work. Not all do it for money, some do it for the satisfaction. When all's said and done, gas safety to the level required by GSR is really not rocket science. I know GSRs who are thick as p*gs&^t but are good at what they do because they learnt by repetition. They have no understanding of why they
are doing it a certain way, they just do it out of habit. And there are engineers who have never taken an ACS assessment, who know more than you and I will ever learn about gas. They are the people who write the regulations. Who is to say they couldn't safely fit a boiler?

in his/her van

 

[Reza]

Mate, we really need to stop playing with words. You can interporate competency whichever way you like, but let me ask you this, is being GSRed being competent! I think you find the answer is yes. Second question, What's one level below being GSRed qualified? I think you find the answer is being ACS qualified. If ACS does not qualify for competency in your book then you must have worked to some other requirements and standards. As far as I know, when you are in reciept of your ACS, few hundred quid later, and you are Gas Safe Registered.

 

[Reza]

Mate I have 2:1 and an MSc in electronic engineering, still, I wouldn't be so fast as to dismissing NVQ 2/3 qualified guys as being thick as PS! Working with Gas requires confidance and consentration. You must also be able to be methodical and number crunch arithmetic equations. Sorry but it seems on that front we don't think alike either!

 

[Reza]

Let me get this absolutely and 100% right Masood. You are saying that it is fine for competant people to work with Gas installation, even though they have no records as being Gas Safe Registered, despite the issues that this may bring along, issues which I have thus far described, i.e. commissioining record, RIDDOR, Unsafe Procedure, not to mention rogue operation with their financial affairs, i.e. contributions and so on and so forth! Is that what your argument is!