As someone who started in the industry in 1974 am I right in thinking in general the quality of lads on the tools is dropping. In my day to day job I have to put these guys to work and am finding standards and work ethic is not what it was. Don't get me wrong there are some good-uns, but alot are worse than fu.
Discuss Is the quality of tradesmen going downhill. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
- Status
- Messages
- 5,439
For a multitude of reasons, yes.
- Messages
- 34,367
- Solutions
- 2
but the time you have to complete jobs is getting less and less theses days
L
lame plumber
The work ethos and ability of those coming into the trade is worse than years ago. It would seem that the idea of everything now rather than working and waiting for it is paramount in todays society, hence all the problems this country now has. It won't get better until the government gets rid of the benefits society and makes it so your worse off on benefits rather than earning money, its that simple. Then there will be good reason to work hard and do a decent job.
S
sheff paul
Couldn't agree more,the advent of combi's,plastic pipe,all good inventions but the number of lads who cannot do a 's' plan is alarming....better for me though..
C
Ch4 plumbing
Think your in and around the right train of thought Kris, although some who do the short course route are good and some who do a full apprenticeship are carp, there are so many reasons why people's work can be classed as bad and some of the reason lays firmly at the feet of the idiots who cream off the worker on sites!!
If you pay peanuts............people rush to feed their families end of!
I don't think is necessarily experience. Look at croft fast tracker if I'm right in saying, yet a successful higher end client base and doing well.
It's the ability to plan a job in your head and view it before it's completed.
I honestly think it's a mix of laziness and low prices, corners get cut prices slashed to win jobs and the turn around needing to be much faster to earn a living.
But also don't forget we live in the age of social media! News of a poor job carried out in Cornwall will reach Liverpool in two clicks of a news feed. We are visually aware of much more then we were even as little as 10 years ago. You look in a late 90's airing cupboard you honestly going to tell me there all of a good standard easily serviceable and pleasing to the eye?
Difference is these days, our expectations are higher, those that are good are very good which shows those that are poor are really carp, but people's budgets are smaller and everyone is still trying to earn what they were earning during the golden age of heating installation
It's the ability to plan a job in your head and view it before it's completed.
I honestly think it's a mix of laziness and low prices, corners get cut prices slashed to win jobs and the turn around needing to be much faster to earn a living.
But also don't forget we live in the age of social media! News of a poor job carried out in Cornwall will reach Liverpool in two clicks of a news feed. We are visually aware of much more then we were even as little as 10 years ago. You look in a late 90's airing cupboard you honestly going to tell me there all of a good standard easily serviceable and pleasing to the eye?
Difference is these days, our expectations are higher, those that are good are very good which shows those that are poor are really carp, but people's budgets are smaller and everyone is still trying to earn what they were earning during the golden age of heating installation
Last edited:
- Messages
- 10,033
Yes, standards have dropped in most jobs, probably especially here, in UK.
I blame the culture of people at the top jobs with Degrees and other qualifications who are often useless and sometimes corrupt. When was the last time you actually have done an exam that really teaches you well, or the last time a building inspector or other, was able to do a fair and carefull inspection of your work?
It's all from the government down. Society is split between a minority who try to be decent and a majority who want everything easy.
I blame the culture of people at the top jobs with Degrees and other qualifications who are often useless and sometimes corrupt. When was the last time you actually have done an exam that really teaches you well, or the last time a building inspector or other, was able to do a fair and carefull inspection of your work?
It's all from the government down. Society is split between a minority who try to be decent and a majority who want everything easy.
Last edited:
R
Ray Stafford
I can't speak for 1974 Nicro, because I didn't come into the industry until the mid 80s. Still nearly 30 years though.
My read would be this.
Firstly, the total amount of technical knowledge in those days was miles less than it is now. Just take filling a tank or cistern - there were maybe 5 or 6 common ballvalve types, and another 3 or 4 uncommon ones. Everything was manufactured to be repaired, reseated, re-washered etc. Back in those days, a ballvalve cost about the same as an hours labour, so there was an incentive to repair it. Now there are about 200 different fill valves on the market, its impossible to keep track of how they all work, and most were not manufactured to be maintained. Even if they were, you couldnt carry all the spares in a juggernaut, never mind a van. A replacement costs about the same as 10 minutes labour. So they get replaced, not repaired.
On the other hand, the degree of craft skill required then was way higher than it is now. Whether it was wiping a lead joint, caulking cast iron soil, threading barrel - all that got killed off with timesaver this, plastic that, and pushfit the other. This tempts people to believe that "this plumbing lark is easy". And if you don't care how neat it looks, it pretty much is easy. Until something goes wrong.
Back in the day, if you had a good understanding of first principles, and well practiced craft skills, there was nothing that could go wrong that you couldnt fix. Nowadays, that simply isnt the case. Why isnt the boiler firing? Back then, it was either the thermocouple or the gas-valve, or no money in the meter. Now it is as likely to be that the wi-fi is down, so the app can't talk to the smart controller.
The old uns think the young uns are idiots because they can't re-washer a portsmouth ballvalve with their eyes closed. The young uns think the old uns are idiots because they can't install an app for the phone to control the heating. Who's the idiot?
In terms of attitude, I think it has polarised. We used to open at 8 am, and if I turned up to work at ten to eight, there would be a couple of vans waiting outside. Now we open at 7 am, and there are often 6 or 7 vans waiting at twenty to 7. Equally, there are more really idle barstewards.
Life moves on...
- Messages
- 10,033
Reality nowadays is if you try to do a Rolls Royce job you normally won't make as much money as the others who do it fast as possible with plastic push fit and every corner cut. No incentive to do a really good job then.
I often find customers and other trades are shocked when they see any work that I do that is visible. They usually say they never have seen neat work like it. Makes me proud of my work, but also I feel I am a mug doing it and wasting my time. That's partly why I do very little real plumbing now.
I miss the days when other trades were generally (but not all) good craftsmen and also had plenty of time to sit drinking tea and telling stories. Most tradespeople seem to have little time nowadays.
I often find customers and other trades are shocked when they see any work that I do that is visible. They usually say they never have seen neat work like it. Makes me proud of my work, but also I feel I am a mug doing it and wasting my time. That's partly why I do very little real plumbing now.
I miss the days when other trades were generally (but not all) good craftsmen and also had plenty of time to sit drinking tea and telling stories. Most tradespeople seem to have little time nowadays.
Last edited:
What you've said sums up a lot of what I feel. I do a neat job even if it's never to be seen again under a concrete floor. This is as much for me as it is the customers because I take pride in my work and enjoy it (mostly) and can walk away knowing that it was done to my best ability.
You're right, I probably don't make as much money as the guy who slaps it in and does one, but that's not my motivation in the first place, although it is my living.
I find a lot of people generally selfish and thoughtless in many senses, not doing anything without it benefitting them, not interested in other people's interests etc etc
If this is the mentality new tradesmen are being taught with then it's not surprising that most couldn't give a toss about the job, they get paid the same no matter how much of an effort they make, and if the boss gets paid and then he's not on your back, then why change?
I'm not saying this is the only reason but it contributes in my opinion.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 4,249
I just throw it in and hope for the best.....
Definitely agree. It all came to a head in my job last week. A lot of us are sick and tired going in to jobs after our colleagues and cleaning up their mess, "making safe" after the callout guy was there the night before and supposedly "made safe" and got paid for the job. People too lazy to look at problems properly, not spending an extra five or ten minutes thinking and using their brain and actually figuring out the problem is. Instead booking up a load of parts that aren't even needed. The next guy will solve the problem, that sort of attitude. People (some through no fault of their own) with no proper qualifications. Makes me wonder sometimes why did I bother serving my time properly. Drives me mad. Let's just say some things had to be said at our toolbox talk last Friday, some fine language was used lol
I
IDCHAPPY
Some of today's laddies are murder 
- Messages
- 7,711
Said this on other posts on this forum that work standard in plumbing is pretty shocking.In my experience its down to said plumbing firms chasing the money and slamming in a complete pile of pap. We have a few firms around here advertising on radio/mags etc etc as heating specialists and yet the work they put in is utterly laughable.
The job i was on last week the house owner was kicking up stink about previous plumbers asking me to write a report about them so they can go back to them . Was a new system put in yet was all over the shop ended up ripping it all out .
This is all over like this to me looks like you don't earn much trying to put in an honest days with with a honest price,however its not in my nature to rip people off .
The job i was on last week the house owner was kicking up stink about previous plumbers asking me to write a report about them so they can go back to them . Was a new system put in yet was all over the shop ended up ripping it all out .
This is all over like this to me looks like you don't earn much trying to put in an honest days with with a honest price,however its not in my nature to rip people off .
- Messages
- 7,711
I price jobs to give me enough time without rushing like an idiot, when i was doing bigger stuff i priced to put guys on the job with me .
From experience its timescales by Architects/building surveyors and assorted mob that end up causing trades to rush and tear.Half the time you only need another week to take pressure off.
Nowadays i seem to be doing endless taps and and cisterns where i can take all the time i want and normally works out minimum £40 per hour
I have noticed a massive drop over the past 5-7 years that I have put down to the recession and the fact of sites closing and a lot more tradesmen competing for the work driving the prices down therefore meaning you have to do more to earn the money.
The sad thing is that customers seem to think that everybody is out to rip them off so if it works they are happy, especially if they have got it a few hundred quid cheaper.
The other problem is the companies ask too much of their employees (10+ jobs a day/ combi swap with power flush in a day) so therefore knowing that they won't be doing the job correctly but know they won't have any comeback. What needs to happen in these cases is the likes of gas safe need to hit the companies as well as the installers/technicians.
The sad thing is that customers seem to think that everybody is out to rip them off so if it works they are happy, especially if they have got it a few hundred quid cheaper.
The other problem is the companies ask too much of their employees (10+ jobs a day/ combi swap with power flush in a day) so therefore knowing that they won't be doing the job correctly but know they won't have any comeback. What needs to happen in these cases is the likes of gas safe need to hit the companies as well as the installers/technicians.
I do that as well, people look at me strange when I say 1.5-2 days to do a combi swap then I say I'm not the quickest but I allow myself enough time to do the job correctly.
And I love the little jobs, for some reason customers don't mind paying £40 per hour on small jobs but if you say £200 a day they almost pass out! Lol.
- Messages
- 7,711
Haha was saying the same to a sparks other day if you break down a boiler change at £40 per hour they nigh on faint but will pay it for a set of taps lol.
C
Ch4 plumbing
A lot of customers don't seem to care about the standard as long as it's cheap! Been to remedy quite a few jobs where plastic is used in airing cupboards to pipe up shower pumps! And they wonder why it doesn't work!
Had a builder tee off the supplies to a bath to run a pump!!
Had a builder tee off the supplies to a bath to run a pump!!
D
drip-dry
yes..no...not really...a bit maybe....not to sure......hope not.....sure it is not....not to sure at all...
- Messages
- 808
Define 'quality'? Skill or workmanship
Off subject but I went to replace a kitchen tap under warranty the other day. I had to remove the back board of the unit. The small amount of pipework to supply the sink was the neatest work Ive ever seen! God knows who did it. The plastic fittings looked like theyd been polished with Pledge. No glue to be seen. The soldered polished with Brillo.
You could see his pencil measurement marks all over though.Tut.
Sadly no idea what age bracket the installer was in. Got a feeling he wasn't in the bottom half
This was all behind the units so will never be seen
Off subject but I went to replace a kitchen tap under warranty the other day. I had to remove the back board of the unit. The small amount of pipework to supply the sink was the neatest work Ive ever seen! God knows who did it. The plastic fittings looked like theyd been polished with Pledge. No glue to be seen. The soldered polished with Brillo.
You could see his pencil measurement marks all over though.Tut.
Sadly no idea what age bracket the installer was in. Got a feeling he wasn't in the bottom half
This was all behind the units so will never be seen
R
Ray Stafford
N
newcastle phill
Surprising how many installs ive been to by time served tradesmen are absolute rubbish and ncs from day 1.
- Messages
- 34,367
- Solutions
- 2
+1 i allow the same but plus half a day to commission and go through controls with customer
As I've only been in the industry 5 years, id say the main problem is money money money, its not so much weather you can do the job right its how quick can you do it for how much,
Where as I prefer to do a job once and do it right with no come backs,
example of this
Went to a leaking bath/shower in a new build 5 year old house
Bath seal split due to the bath not being supported correctly
And shower screen leaking due to no silicone behind the screen
So for the sake of an inch of silicone the shower screen had been leaking since new and due to the bath not being supported by the brackets provided the bath wobbled like duck.
And the main reason for this was probably because the plumber on site was most likely on price to get 10 baths in in a day
Where as I prefer to do a job once and do it right with no come backs,
example of this
Went to a leaking bath/shower in a new build 5 year old house
Bath seal split due to the bath not being supported correctly
And shower screen leaking due to no silicone behind the screen
So for the sake of an inch of silicone the shower screen had been leaking since new and due to the bath not being supported by the brackets provided the bath wobbled like duck.
And the main reason for this was probably because the plumber on site was most likely on price to get 10 baths in in a day
R
Ray Stafford
I wonder if you guys are suffering from rose-coloured spectacles regarding the standard of work in the past.
There were cowboys and corner-cutters, and couldn't-be-arsed council employees, just the same as there is now. Filling loops were expensive, so people would use washing machine taps and hoses instead. Chemical inhibitor? An expensive luxury. A good old 3mm bath will be fine love, don't you worry. And yes, this cylinder is tissue-paper thin, and has so little coil that it will take 3 hours to reheat, but it was only £39 + VAT.
Bit of spillage from the open flue? Never mind, a bit of duct-tape will sort it. Guess the ventilation, and size the rads based on square footage calculations. Leaded solder everywhere, don't worry, the Romans used it. And where are the Romans now? All bloody dead - from lead poisoning as like as not.
Uncovered CWS tanks where the rats swam around in the water, eating the bits of dead pigeon. Lovely!
Have a nice ascending spray bidet dearie, connected directly to the same water supply you're drinking. Water regs? Don't tell me about water regs, I've been doing this since the war you cheeky little whipper snapper. And a part 1 ballvalve was good enough for me old grandad, and its good enough for me. And of course the gold plate on those taps won't come off in 5 minutes love - it will last at least until my van gets to the end of the road.
Have you people never seen "Only Fools & Horses"?
<sings> no income tax, no VAT...</sings>
Honestly, if there ever was a golden age, it wasn't in my time.
There were cowboys and corner-cutters, and couldn't-be-arsed council employees, just the same as there is now. Filling loops were expensive, so people would use washing machine taps and hoses instead. Chemical inhibitor? An expensive luxury. A good old 3mm bath will be fine love, don't you worry. And yes, this cylinder is tissue-paper thin, and has so little coil that it will take 3 hours to reheat, but it was only £39 + VAT.
Bit of spillage from the open flue? Never mind, a bit of duct-tape will sort it. Guess the ventilation, and size the rads based on square footage calculations. Leaded solder everywhere, don't worry, the Romans used it. And where are the Romans now? All bloody dead - from lead poisoning as like as not.
Uncovered CWS tanks where the rats swam around in the water, eating the bits of dead pigeon. Lovely!
Have a nice ascending spray bidet dearie, connected directly to the same water supply you're drinking. Water regs? Don't tell me about water regs, I've been doing this since the war you cheeky little whipper snapper. And a part 1 ballvalve was good enough for me old grandad, and its good enough for me. And of course the gold plate on those taps won't come off in 5 minutes love - it will last at least until my van gets to the end of the road.
Have you people never seen "Only Fools & Horses"?
<sings> no income tax, no VAT...</sings>
Honestly, if there ever was a golden age, it wasn't in my time.
Last edited by a moderator:
L
lame plumber
I am sure merchants used to be better in years gone by
R
Ray Stafford
I am sure merchants used to be better in years gone by
Nah. Rubbish then, and rubbish now.
- Messages
- 870
From my experience older plumbers are determined to do every bit of work the "proper" way, but the "proper" way is different from plumber to plumber. There is reluctance to do anything thats not familiar. From what Ive seen older plumbers take more time and care to think a job through and to do each bit.
Younger plumbers tend to rush alot more, especially the planning part. But I think we are abit more flexible in terms of willingness to learn new things and try them out
Younger plumbers tend to rush alot more, especially the planning part. But I think we are abit more flexible in terms of willingness to learn new things and try them out
Whilst I agree with you there does seem to be a lot more about now. Or possibly it is easier to here about them now.
- Messages
- 7,711
I had to laugh today in the merchants two young plumbers never knew you could buy a brass ball valve!!!!!
There was a golden age in plumbing its when combis first come out , a few of us realised quite quickly that you can bang them in sharpish and walk away with nice sum of money.This bubble burst about 10 year ago but not before a select few earned hell of a lot of money.
There was a golden age in plumbing its when combis first come out , a few of us realised quite quickly that you can bang them in sharpish and walk away with nice sum of money.This bubble burst about 10 year ago but not before a select few earned hell of a lot of money.
- Messages
- 34,367
- Solutions
- 2
- Messages
- 998
There were some guys banging about how they could change a combi in 3 hours on the 'elite tradesman' fb group.
Well, it takes me on average 2 days on my tod.
There's like this mentality to shame the guy taking his time and doing a tidy job, well screw that i'll take my time after all its all paid for.
Well, it takes me on average 2 days on my tod.
There's like this mentality to shame the guy taking his time and doing a tidy job, well screw that i'll take my time after all its all paid for.
N
newcastle phill
From my experience older plumbers can be some of the most complacent and lazy people going.
Most seemingly cant be asred in my experience.
I am presuming you are referring to old as been in the trade for years and years
- Messages
- 7,711
Old or young both can be shocking .
My biggest nark is certain firms around here advertise specialist gas and heating and yet put in some of the worst installs i have seen.Be interesting if gas safe done something like 10 points (3 points a complaint)and you get a year ban like driving.
As usual a well considered and constructive reply Ray. I understand your point about the limited types of fittings, valves etc and the replacement of like for like that goes on today. My sphere of knowledge is in commercial installation and sometimes the school boy errors by so called tradesmen make today would embarrass a first year apprentice of thirty years ago. With ref to the technical know how today and skill remember there were more persons checking the quality, clerk of the works, drainage inspectors and non working foremen. Money talks today and I think the work ethic is slowly dying. But what do I know, Im just a moany old c--t
N
newcastle phill
Its not only the younguns, alot is to do with the training criteria.
Once upon a time an old school plumber would also do leading such as lead flashing around stacks etc. Now its more down to a roofer.
Year on year the roles are being redefined and old skills dropped and passed onto another trade
Once upon a time an old school plumber would also do leading such as lead flashing around stacks etc. Now its more down to a roofer.
Year on year the roles are being redefined and old skills dropped and passed onto another trade
- Messages
- 10,033
Plumbers used to do all the guttering, down pipes, & any lead work. Probably often sewer work also. I always remember many years ago an attempt to be introduced to an old plumber who was well into his 90s. Thinking about it, he was probably really of Victorian era.
When we were introduced to him as he walked past, he just said " not plumbers nowadays, just fitters!" and kept walking. :smile:
When we were introduced to him as he walked past, he just said " not plumbers nowadays, just fitters!" and kept walking. :smile:
I get customers being surprised that I do gutters and Drainage, when questioned they always say I didn't think that was a plumbers job
Shhhhh! Keep it quiet!
I don't want to be hanging off a ladder doing guttering all day! Especially with the wind down here. Lol.
- Messages
- 7,711
plumber still do guttering on site think last I done it quid a meter lol
- Messages
- 9,319
Old money?
- Status
Reply to Is the quality of tradesmen going downhill. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
Similar plumbing topics
IS IT POSSIBLE TO ADJUST THIS MIXER UNIT? WE HAVE TO HAVE IT TURNED ALMOST FULLY ANTI CLOCKWISE TO GET HOT WATEROUT.
THE FRONT PLATE WITH MIRA ON...
Hi, basic question, any insight much appreciated.
Looking to have an outdoor tap in my front porch fed from 15mm pex coming up from suspended...
Newest Plumbing Threads
-
Y Plan central heating gets hot on hot water demand
- Started by MPGASANDPLUMBING
- Replies: 0
-
Grant boiler rusting inside after 1 yr
- Started by RayPlumb
- Replies: 3
-
Instructions say to apply glass cement to rubber washer. Can I use silicone?
- Started by JM Tiling
- Replies: 1
-
How do I remove the copper pipe from the plastic connector?
- Started by JM Tiling
- Replies: 2
-
Pressure reducer/regulator for plastic water line?
- Started by carpetguardian
- Replies: 1
-
Cold water issues in the top bathroom
- Started by Apex84
- Replies: 2
-
