As someone who started in the industry in 1974 am I right in thinking in general the quality of lads on the tools is dropping. In my day to day job I have to put these guys to work and am finding standards and work ethic is not what it was. Don't get me wrong there are some good-uns, but alot are worse than fu.
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Is the quality of tradesmen going downhill.
Discuss Is the quality of tradesmen going downhill. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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For a multitude of reasons, yes.
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but the time you have to complete jobs is getting less and less theses days
L
lame plumber
The work ethos and ability of those coming into the trade is worse than years ago. It would seem that the idea of everything now rather than working and waiting for it is paramount in todays society, hence all the problems this country now has. It won't get better until the government gets rid of the benefits society and makes it so your worse off on benefits rather than earning money, its that simple. Then there will be good reason to work hard and do a decent job.
S
sheff paul
Couldn't agree more,the advent of combi's,plastic pipe,all good inventions but the number of lads who cannot do a 's' plan is alarming....better for me though..
C
Ch4 plumbing
Think your in and around the right train of thought Kris, although some who do the short course route are good and some who do a full apprenticeship are carp, there are so many reasons why people's work can be classed as bad and some of the reason lays firmly at the feet of the idiots who cream off the worker on sites!!
If you pay peanuts............people rush to feed their families end of!
I don't think is necessarily experience. Look at croft fast tracker if I'm right in saying, yet a successful higher end client base and doing well.
It's the ability to plan a job in your head and view it before it's completed.
I honestly think it's a mix of laziness and low prices, corners get cut prices slashed to win jobs and the turn around needing to be much faster to earn a living.
But also don't forget we live in the age of social media! News of a poor job carried out in Cornwall will reach Liverpool in two clicks of a news feed. We are visually aware of much more then we were even as little as 10 years ago. You look in a late 90's airing cupboard you honestly going to tell me there all of a good standard easily serviceable and pleasing to the eye?
Difference is these days, our expectations are higher, those that are good are very good which shows those that are poor are really carp, but people's budgets are smaller and everyone is still trying to earn what they were earning during the golden age of heating installation
It's the ability to plan a job in your head and view it before it's completed.
I honestly think it's a mix of laziness and low prices, corners get cut prices slashed to win jobs and the turn around needing to be much faster to earn a living.
But also don't forget we live in the age of social media! News of a poor job carried out in Cornwall will reach Liverpool in two clicks of a news feed. We are visually aware of much more then we were even as little as 10 years ago. You look in a late 90's airing cupboard you honestly going to tell me there all of a good standard easily serviceable and pleasing to the eye?
Difference is these days, our expectations are higher, those that are good are very good which shows those that are poor are really carp, but people's budgets are smaller and everyone is still trying to earn what they were earning during the golden age of heating installation
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Yes, standards have dropped in most jobs, probably especially here, in UK.
I blame the culture of people at the top jobs with Degrees and other qualifications who are often useless and sometimes corrupt. When was the last time you actually have done an exam that really teaches you well, or the last time a building inspector or other, was able to do a fair and carefull inspection of your work?
It's all from the government down. Society is split between a minority who try to be decent and a majority who want everything easy.
I blame the culture of people at the top jobs with Degrees and other qualifications who are often useless and sometimes corrupt. When was the last time you actually have done an exam that really teaches you well, or the last time a building inspector or other, was able to do a fair and carefull inspection of your work?
It's all from the government down. Society is split between a minority who try to be decent and a majority who want everything easy.
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R
Ray Stafford
I can't speak for 1974 Nicro, because I didn't come into the industry until the mid 80s. Still nearly 30 years though.
My read would be this.
Firstly, the total amount of technical knowledge in those days was miles less than it is now. Just take filling a tank or cistern - there were maybe 5 or 6 common ballvalve types, and another 3 or 4 uncommon ones. Everything was manufactured to be repaired, reseated, re-washered etc. Back in those days, a ballvalve cost about the same as an hours labour, so there was an incentive to repair it. Now there are about 200 different fill valves on the market, its impossible to keep track of how they all work, and most were not manufactured to be maintained. Even if they were, you couldnt carry all the spares in a juggernaut, never mind a van. A replacement costs about the same as 10 minutes labour. So they get replaced, not repaired.
On the other hand, the degree of craft skill required then was way higher than it is now. Whether it was wiping a lead joint, caulking cast iron soil, threading barrel - all that got killed off with timesaver this, plastic that, and pushfit the other. This tempts people to believe that "this plumbing lark is easy". And if you don't care how neat it looks, it pretty much is easy. Until something goes wrong.
Back in the day, if you had a good understanding of first principles, and well practiced craft skills, there was nothing that could go wrong that you couldnt fix. Nowadays, that simply isnt the case. Why isnt the boiler firing? Back then, it was either the thermocouple or the gas-valve, or no money in the meter. Now it is as likely to be that the wi-fi is down, so the app can't talk to the smart controller.
The old uns think the young uns are idiots because they can't re-washer a portsmouth ballvalve with their eyes closed. The young uns think the old uns are idiots because they can't install an app for the phone to control the heating. Who's the idiot?
In terms of attitude, I think it has polarised. We used to open at 8 am, and if I turned up to work at ten to eight, there would be a couple of vans waiting outside. Now we open at 7 am, and there are often 6 or 7 vans waiting at twenty to 7. Equally, there are more really idle barstewards.
Life moves on...
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Reality nowadays is if you try to do a Rolls Royce job you normally won't make as much money as the others who do it fast as possible with plastic push fit and every corner cut. No incentive to do a really good job then.
I often find customers and other trades are shocked when they see any work that I do that is visible. They usually say they never have seen neat work like it. Makes me proud of my work, but also I feel I am a mug doing it and wasting my time. That's partly why I do very little real plumbing now.
I miss the days when other trades were generally (but not all) good craftsmen and also had plenty of time to sit drinking tea and telling stories. Most tradespeople seem to have little time nowadays.
I often find customers and other trades are shocked when they see any work that I do that is visible. They usually say they never have seen neat work like it. Makes me proud of my work, but also I feel I am a mug doing it and wasting my time. That's partly why I do very little real plumbing now.
I miss the days when other trades were generally (but not all) good craftsmen and also had plenty of time to sit drinking tea and telling stories. Most tradespeople seem to have little time nowadays.
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What you've said sums up a lot of what I feel. I do a neat job even if it's never to be seen again under a concrete floor. This is as much for me as it is the customers because I take pride in my work and enjoy it (mostly) and can walk away knowing that it was done to my best ability.
You're right, I probably don't make as much money as the guy who slaps it in and does one, but that's not my motivation in the first place, although it is my living.
I find a lot of people generally selfish and thoughtless in many senses, not doing anything without it benefitting them, not interested in other people's interests etc etc
If this is the mentality new tradesmen are being taught with then it's not surprising that most couldn't give a toss about the job, they get paid the same no matter how much of an effort they make, and if the boss gets paid and then he's not on your back, then why change?
I'm not saying this is the only reason but it contributes in my opinion.
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I just throw it in and hope for the best.....
Definitely agree. It all came to a head in my job last week. A lot of us are sick and tired going in to jobs after our colleagues and cleaning up their mess, "making safe" after the callout guy was there the night before and supposedly "made safe" and got paid for the job. People too lazy to look at problems properly, not spending an extra five or ten minutes thinking and using their brain and actually figuring out the problem is. Instead booking up a load of parts that aren't even needed. The next guy will solve the problem, that sort of attitude. People (some through no fault of their own) with no proper qualifications. Makes me wonder sometimes why did I bother serving my time properly. Drives me mad. Let's just say some things had to be said at our toolbox talk last Friday, some fine language was used lol
I
IDCHAPPY
Some of today's laddies are murder 
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Said this on other posts on this forum that work standard in plumbing is pretty shocking.In my experience its down to said plumbing firms chasing the money and slamming in a complete pile of pap. We have a few firms around here advertising on radio/mags etc etc as heating specialists and yet the work they put in is utterly laughable.
The job i was on last week the house owner was kicking up stink about previous plumbers asking me to write a report about them so they can go back to them . Was a new system put in yet was all over the shop ended up ripping it all out .
This is all over like this to me looks like you don't earn much trying to put in an honest days with with a honest price,however its not in my nature to rip people off .
The job i was on last week the house owner was kicking up stink about previous plumbers asking me to write a report about them so they can go back to them . Was a new system put in yet was all over the shop ended up ripping it all out .
This is all over like this to me looks like you don't earn much trying to put in an honest days with with a honest price,however its not in my nature to rip people off .
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I price jobs to give me enough time without rushing like an idiot, when i was doing bigger stuff i priced to put guys on the job with me .
From experience its timescales by Architects/building surveyors and assorted mob that end up causing trades to rush and tear.Half the time you only need another week to take pressure off.
Nowadays i seem to be doing endless taps and and cisterns where i can take all the time i want and normally works out minimum £40 per hour
I have noticed a massive drop over the past 5-7 years that I have put down to the recession and the fact of sites closing and a lot more tradesmen competing for the work driving the prices down therefore meaning you have to do more to earn the money.
The sad thing is that customers seem to think that everybody is out to rip them off so if it works they are happy, especially if they have got it a few hundred quid cheaper.
The other problem is the companies ask too much of their employees (10+ jobs a day/ combi swap with power flush in a day) so therefore knowing that they won't be doing the job correctly but know they won't have any comeback. What needs to happen in these cases is the likes of gas safe need to hit the companies as well as the installers/technicians.
The sad thing is that customers seem to think that everybody is out to rip them off so if it works they are happy, especially if they have got it a few hundred quid cheaper.
The other problem is the companies ask too much of their employees (10+ jobs a day/ combi swap with power flush in a day) so therefore knowing that they won't be doing the job correctly but know they won't have any comeback. What needs to happen in these cases is the likes of gas safe need to hit the companies as well as the installers/technicians.
I do that as well, people look at me strange when I say 1.5-2 days to do a combi swap then I say I'm not the quickest but I allow myself enough time to do the job correctly.
And I love the little jobs, for some reason customers don't mind paying £40 per hour on small jobs but if you say £200 a day they almost pass out! Lol.
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Haha was saying the same to a sparks other day if you break down a boiler change at £40 per hour they nigh on faint but will pay it for a set of taps lol.
C
Ch4 plumbing
A lot of customers don't seem to care about the standard as long as it's cheap! Been to remedy quite a few jobs where plastic is used in airing cupboards to pipe up shower pumps! And they wonder why it doesn't work!
Had a builder tee off the supplies to a bath to run a pump!!
Had a builder tee off the supplies to a bath to run a pump!!
D
drip-dry
yes..no...not really...a bit maybe....not to sure......hope not.....sure it is not....not to sure at all...
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Define 'quality'? Skill or workmanship
Off subject but I went to replace a kitchen tap under warranty the other day. I had to remove the back board of the unit. The small amount of pipework to supply the sink was the neatest work Ive ever seen! God knows who did it. The plastic fittings looked like theyd been polished with Pledge. No glue to be seen. The soldered polished with Brillo.
You could see his pencil measurement marks all over though.Tut.
Sadly no idea what age bracket the installer was in. Got a feeling he wasn't in the bottom half
This was all behind the units so will never be seen
Off subject but I went to replace a kitchen tap under warranty the other day. I had to remove the back board of the unit. The small amount of pipework to supply the sink was the neatest work Ive ever seen! God knows who did it. The plastic fittings looked like theyd been polished with Pledge. No glue to be seen. The soldered polished with Brillo.
You could see his pencil measurement marks all over though.Tut.
Sadly no idea what age bracket the installer was in. Got a feeling he wasn't in the bottom half
This was all behind the units so will never be seen
R
Ray Stafford
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