Frozen condense pipe

[TomLane]

Customer called today with a frozen condense pipe.

Is it a GSR, spark or plumber job to fit the device to prevent freezing?

Also, recommendations for best product to fit.

 

[Blake]

Firstly I would attempt to re-route to inside. If this is not possible then upgrade the pipe size to 40mm if not already. Yes, you can fit a trace heater type thing to the pipe, but it kind of defeats the purpose of having a high efficiency boiler if you are gonna spend energy heating the condensate pipe IMHO.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Good advice from Blake.

There is also this product from Worcester - not sure how easy it would be to retro-fit.

Link

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

upgrade pipe size, try to connect internally or insulate existing one. if possible maybe run in steeper angle

 

[TomLane]

Thanks guys.

Haven't had chance to get round there yet & see what the situation is with the length of pipe etc.

I was under the impression that a smaller diameter, shorter length of pipe came from the boiler & this was then inserted into a spigot/adaptor to a waste pipe that went to an outside drain. If this is the case, should the shorter length from boiler terminate internally to waste pipe that then runs to externally?

What's the regs about routing the pipe to a waste pipe off an appliance (sink etc)?

 

[Blake]

I always take 40mm into the property and then have a short bit of overflow from the boiler connection into the the 40mm. You don't want any overflow going through the wall or on the outside.

You can tee into existing wastes internally no problem.

 

[TomLane]

Thanks Blake

Is it always overflow that comes from the boiler? I vaguely remember seeing a ridged white hose previously on another boiler?!?

Pre-empting any questions from the customer, what's the likelihood if it were to be tee'd into the wastes of existing appliances for it to still freeze?

 

[erpkid]

Thanks Blake

Is it always overflow that comes from the boiler? I vaguely remember seeing a ridged white hose previously on another boiler?!?

Pre-empting any questions from the customer, what's the likelihood if it were to be tee'd into the wastes of existing appliances for it to still freeze?

Almost none but if the waste was blocked that would be the same result.

 

[TomLane]

Thanks again for all your helpful information guys! Good to expand your knowledge!

The customer has decided to get a spark to fit a trace heating element device despite the fact I've told him it would be cheaper to re-route the pipe internally.

 

[Subby]

Fit a rodding/cleaning eye to the top of the outside part of condensate pipe, so when it freezes you can remove the eye and pour a kettle down it.

 

[henly1234]

it comes out of the boiler in 22mm then should be routed either to an inside waste pipe that goes to the house waste water system or if it goes externally should go to a tun dish then into 40mm (which should be lagged and terminate into a drain under the grating or a purpose made soak away, the water contains traces of sulfuric acid.

 

[Koogatubac]

Fit a rodding/cleaning eye to the top of the outside part of condensate pipe, so when it freezes you can remove the eye and pour a kettle down it.

Very good idea, never thought of this... If you have to send overflow outside instead of it being a elbow change it to a tee. Good advice mate!

 

[Roger Welton]

Always got to 1 1/4 before going through wall, but best be it connect internally if possible.

 

[michael c]

it comes out of the boiler in 22mm then should be routed either to an inside waste pipe that goes to the house waste water system or if it goes externally should go to a tun dish then into 40mm (which should be lagged and terminate into a drain under the grating or a purpose made soak away, the water contains traces of sulfuric acid.

Never heard of the use of a tundish on condensate? not sure of the regs but its not something i would do as if pipe froze that would allow overflow to occur out the tundish. Remember the condensate is also classed as part of the flue system.

 

[Roger Welton]

If you look at most MI they spec a tundish, to prevent backing up into boiler.

 

[michael c]

thanks roger, do you know how long this has been around (been off since august) but before that i have never seen or heard of a tundish being part of the condensate. I work for a large company and all we had been advised was that a customer could cut and empty into a bucket if persistant issue.

 

[Centralheatking]

I would rather a little water in my house than be cold with no heating - nice one Roger
u snowed in seems Somerset is stuffed ?

If you look at most MI they spec a tundish, to prevent backing up into boiler.

 

[Roger Welton]

Been out to a few this morning, probably had about 4-5"

 

[Koogatubac]

Dont know why you would install a tundish on a condensate. If it blocked up alot of boilers would lock out due to sensors stating that the condensate is blocked.

Also thats surely a bad idea to install a tundish due to thats encouraging the elements to freeze the dripping condensate water.

I personally drill a 1 1/4" pipe to inside and have small amount of overflow connecting to this with a 1 1/4" - 3/4" reducer so the whole condensate is sealed

 

[michael c]

i do the same kooga just seems so wrong, just had a look and it seems this dispute has been going a while

 

[henly1234]

Most fitters just put the 3/4 condense line into the larger size pipe serves the same purpose as a suction break to prevent the condense trap being pulled and therefor allow flue gases to escape better to have an overflow that a flue gas escape.
And that's the purpose of a larger pipe to help prevent freezing and it should be lagged.

Although the regs appear to be paranoid about condensate (as I see it) i doubt very much harm would come if it did overflow not much more harmful than acid rain I imagine.

 

[Danv44444]

I usually just connect inside on a fall or fit a condensate pump

 

[erpkid]

Never heard of the use of a tundish on condensate? not sure of the regs but its not something i would do as if pipe froze that would allow overflow to occur out the tundish. Remember the condensate is also classed as part of the flue system.

Yes never heard of this as a requirement and as you say there is a potential however small for POC to pass. If the tun dish was internal then there would be no need as it would be unlikely to freeze. If outside then it would make the freezing issue far more acute. Tend only to install Worcester and Vaillant so do not have full access to MI's for other boilers.

 

[erpkid]

it comes out of the boiler in 22mm then should be routed either to an inside waste pipe that goes to the house waste water system or if it goes externally should go to a tun dish then into 40mm (which should be lagged and terminate into a drain under the grating or a purpose made soak away, the water contains traces of sulfuric acid.

It is carbonic acid

 

[dancinplumba]

if its classed as part of the flue system then Only a GSR can touch it

 

[dancinplumba]

Most fitters just put the 3/4 condense line into the larger size pipe serves the same purpose as a suction break to prevent the condense trap being pulled and therefor allow flue gases to escape better to have an overflow that a flue gas escape.
And that's the purpose of a larger pipe to help prevent freezing and it should be lagged.

Although the regs appear to be paranoid about condensate (as I see it) i doubt very much harm would come if it did overflow not much more harmful than acid rain I imagine.

then the larger pipe requires a trap

 

[johnnyplumb]

Fit a rodding/cleaning eye to the top of the outside part of condensate pipe, so when it freezes you can remove the eye and pour a kettle down it.

it's not a cure though, better to prevent it freezing in the first place
if it freezes, it's not been installed properly. there's no excuses nowadays for frozen condensate, there's plenty of ways of preventing it.

 

[Terry_the_piper]

Noticed pipe tends to freeze from drain end back up so generally, by the time you notice, it is full of ice top to bottom and takes some defrosting what ever the diameter. Which also seems to explain why lagging the external pipe only seems to delay the inevitable.