Was I right to Turn off this boiler?

[Ryster]

Hello everyone,

A bit of clarification needed on this one.
Basically another boiler breakdown on an old Ideal. I got there, the pilot wouldnt stay on, so was 90% it was the Thermocouple, however upon getting an MV reading from the Thermocouple I noticed that the pilotlight-Sightglass was cracked, I have attached a picture.

So the guy comes upto me and says can I fix it, to which I replied yes, however I cant turn it back on as the pilot sightglass is cracked and could be allowing POC out into the room.
He wasnt happy about this, and said that he just wanted me to replace the thermocouple and get it going again, and if I wouldnt then he would go out and get one himself and fit it himself.
By this time, I had gone beyond the stage of worrying about his family and more about myself and my freedom. So I told him I wasnt prepared to fix the thermocoulple without replacing the sightglass (which is now an obsolete part according to Ideal parts, its a stupidly old boiler!) because he would then just turn it on himself.

So I issued him with an ID notice, removed the gas supply to the boiler and turned off the electrical supply. He wasnt happy, but I told him I wasnt prepared to do just fix the Thermocouple without replacing the sightglass. I informed him if he wanted to get another GSR engineer in to do it then thats no problem, but I was giving him the notice and slapping a sticker on his boiler.

He then informed me that the boiler had been signed off as safe in January, now this boiler is in the corner of the room, inside a casing inside a cupboard so how on earth the sightglass has been cracked in 3 months I dont know. I was also told the guy who signed it off was retiring 2 weeks after that job, so im thinking he has just totally blagged it.

Anyway, have I gone well over the top here? Or have I done exactly what I should to protect both this guy, and myself. I only ask as I have never had to issue an ID notice before, nor had to deal with such an arrogant bloke.

Replies welcome, and also any idea where to get a sightglass for a very old ideal boiler?




Here is a picture of the cracked sightglass for everyone!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

you are right to turn it off but the part is available its part number319494 or if getting it from pts its 1174870,this would probably fit as well [DLMURL]http://www.gas-spares.co.uk/Catalogue/IDEAL/BOILERS-FREE-STANDING/MEXICO-Range/MEXICO-SUPER-MK4-Range/MEXICO-100-MK4-FF-S[/DLMURL]

 

[steosman]

You did the right thing. Always cover yourself. If you fixed it and his kid died from carbon monoxide poisoning who do you think he'd lay the blame on. Most customers will always want you to do whats needed to ensure safety. The odd customer that wants a cheap fix not up to safety standards, walk away. We will always get the blame and it will come back to haunt you. Well done for sticking to your principals in these tough economic times, most guys just want to get paid

 

[smillsey]

trouble is once you have seen it you need to report an ID situation to the transporter if they refuse to let you do anything...

The fact you are aware of the problem is the issue

I would of ID'd too

 

[quality]

With a cracked sight glass I would not ID a boiler although if POC are entering the room Then I would.
that is my brief

 

[smillsey]

i thought he said they were entering room?

maybe i read it wrong

 

[CES]

In the picture it looks like the glass has moved so there is a clear gap, no argument here I would have ID it.

 

[Barry98]

good on ya ryster for ID ing it , i would of too its not easy its not what they want to hear , but at least he will live to tell the tale

 

[Gray0689]

You did your job mate don't really matter what we all think it's your decision at the end of the day as a GSR I would of done the same thing as like said looked like glass moved

 

[Ryster]

Thanks lads, good to know I wasnt being over the top in what I did.
Thanks for the input on the part-number too, might get a few of these for the van.

 

[easyt]

Whilst I have no doubt you are right it does niggle me a bit that these days we are so regulated as to attempt to remove all risk. I doubt that there was much seepage from the cracked glass. But as I said I acknowledge that you wee correct. Out of interest only - would it be possible in such a situation to seal the crack with a fire resistant silicone or would that not be acceptable?

 

[dontknowitall]

Whilst I have no doubt you are right it does niggle me a bit that these days we are so regulated as to attempt to remove all risk. I doubt that there was much seepage from the cracked glass. But as I said I acknowledge that you wee correct. Out of interest only - would it be possible in such a situation to seal the crack with a fire resistant silicone or would that not be acceptable?

This is one reason why I'm not happy to do gas. The trouble is no one is allowed to calculate a risk for themselves any longer in all sorts of sections of life.

There is hope though. At the childrens' last school (also where I went many yonks ago) a health and safety guide came through forbidding the children to climb trees. The then headmaster wrote to all parents saying that part of a child's education is learning about risk. With this in mind he wanted to allow the children to climb trees and asked parents to fill in the form at the bottom of the letter if they didn't want their child climbing. Not one parent wrote in. Also, as far as I'm aware, no injuries have arisen from climbing trees either.

 

[Dannypipe]

I would have ID'd it too.

People don't generally thankyou for turning their boiler off, but with genuine engineers like you, its alway to safeguard them.

Don't bother carrying loads of sight glasses in the van, doubt you'll need one again for a while and PTS carry a lot on their shelves.

 

[turnpin]

Although not gsr would go with the majority yes you done the right thing thats what you are trained to do at least common sense should prevailregards turnpin

 

[GrahamM]

The question is; was it causing an immediate danger to life or property? Was there evidence of spillage of POC from the cracked glass?
Out comes the FGA, position close to the glass, run boiler to temp, if there was no evidence of spillage of POC from the glass then should be classified as 'AR' in my opinion.

 

[Ryster]

The question is; was it causing an immediate danger to life or property? Was there evidence of spillage of POC from the cracked glass?
Out comes the FGA, position close to the glass, run boiler to temp, if there was no evidence of spillage of POC from the glass then should be classified as 'AR' in my opinion.

I would be inclined to agree with you, but then surely you have to take into account the situation?
The guy was clearly not interested in anything I had to say safety wise, so say I issue an AR notice to this guy and advise him not to use the boiler the likelyhood would be that he would just get the boiler fired up and running by getting himself a Thermocouple and not do anything about getting the sightglass fixed, three weeks later the boiler fires up and starts releasing POC into the room, a week after that the worse happens.
What happens then? Even though I may have done everything by the book I would know myself that I could have done more to protect him and his family.

Surely its not just about going by the book, but by thinking about the potential situations that can rise after you leave?

This is one reason why I'm not happy to do gas. The trouble is no one is allowed to calculate a risk for themselves any longer in all sorts of sections of life.

Agreed. Sometimes it does feel like you're doing everything just to cover your own back. Sometimes you come across things that you know for a fact are not going to cause any danger, but going by the book you have to do something about it, and that something is usually way over the top for the situation.
I feel like genuine gas engineers should have the freedom to calculate risk, and to act on situations going purely off their own knowledge and experience instead of following a constantly updated set of rules and regulations.
However if you give this freedom, then what about the jump-ship charlies who do a weeks gas course and dont even know how to use LDF? They are just going to hurt someone.

 

[smillsey]

think about it this way .

a cracked glass would have a smaller gap than a properly fitted foam/rubber seal.

i bet you would get more leakage from a seal fitted properly.

 

[Gray0689]

think about it this way .

a cracked glass would have a smaller gap than a properly fitted foam/rubber seal.

i bet you would get more leakage from a seal fitted properly.

We are all going to have our own opinions the only one that matters is yours as you was the man doing the job if you felt it was ID then that's the answer simple as that it's on your head you call it.
If the customer gets another GSR to come out and he says it's all right then it's out of your hands and not your problem

 

[GrahamM]

I would be inclined to agree with you, but then surely you have to take into account the situation?
The guy was clearly not interested in anything I had to say safety wise, so say I issue an AR notice to this guy and advise him not to use the boiler the likelyhood would be that he would just get the boiler fired up and running by getting himself a Thermocouple and not do anything about getting the sightglass fixed, three weeks later the boiler fires up and starts releasing POC into the room, a week after that the worse happens.
What happens then? Even though I may have done everything by the book I would know myself that I could have done more to protect him and his family.

Surely its not just about going by the book, but by thinking about the potential situations that can rise after you leave?

The rules/regs are there to be followed. You cannot go making up your own as you go. As per the regs this was 'AR'. Was there any sign of spillage at all?
I am aware of situations where you may be unsure wither to classify as 'AR' or 'ID' and to be safe err on the 'ID' always, but this situation is as clear as day- no signs of spillage- 'AR'.
Do your job to the best of your abilities as per the regs. Document/note everything especially if you think the customer has no intention of complying with the recommendation. You have then done your job. You cant go away worrying about wither a customer does this or that when you leave.

Work within the rules/regs and you have all the protection backup if a problem does occur at a later date. Step outside the regs and you may at some stage bring trouble to your door.

 

[aggis]

With the crack & hole, as in photo, It must be sealed as the hole will unbalance the boiler flue system, causing disturbance on the pilot & burner. If this can not be repaired[ new pilot window & seals] the boiler must be issolated & ID. NO QUESTION.
On our gas accessments , we inspect precast flue blocks & sealants, wrong type or no sealant/hole. it's ID. It's just as important with Balanced flues. No different, if we saw a chimney with a hole in it's wall, we wouldn't let it pass the smoke test, just because the smoke only came out of the terminal/

 

[ballandco]

I would have done the same mate,you know if you didnt I.D it ,it would be playing on your mind for ages,so look after yourself .

 

[Floyd]

Isn't this only I'D if it is a room sealed boiler and not an open flue'd boiler?

 

[CES]

It is room sealed

 

[Floyd]

Oh right, Sorry I must have missed something as the only information supplied was old Ideal boiler.

 

[CES]

Sorry, I've probably assumed it was room sealed due to the picture. The open flued models Ive seen,the thermocouples are routed to inside the combustion chamber,the room sealed versions are attached to the front under the gas valve. I could be wrong, didn't mean to sound flippant.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

its id in both cases the obvious reasons in RS in the case of OF it could technically let more air in for combustion than designed by the manufacture,excess air = wrong flame picture

 

[Floyd]

I'm led to believe from my ex trainer, that if its pulling ok, it's AR. Either way, they get a ticket an no gas to boiler.

 

[Dotty]

ID no question.

I always will err on the side of caution because I would take a carpeting every day of the week for being over cautious rather than end up before 12 of my peers!

Having said that, it is gut wrenching the first time you do ID an installation / appliance. I had a college campus up in Strabane that had LPG joining 50 year old town gas pipework in a basement boiler house then running up a riser to the top floor restaurant. There were too many items borderline AR and borderline ID as well as the obvious (1st stage LPG in a boilerhouse with no detection, no isolation solenoids, no interlocks to the heating panel, no fire protection or gas tight seals between floors up the riser - gridwork only! Pipework supported in the boilerhouse by blue nylon rope etc). I knew that for some of the kids this was the only place they got a hot meal. Even so - ID.

I felt terrible all day.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

suppose i am lucky i have no hesitation id ing a appliance if its dangerous/dodgy its off,dont think twice,better cold than dead cold

 

[Dotty]

Couldn't agree more there GM. I don't get a tinge of guilt these days either.

 

[CES]

Last one I turned off, the old lady was fine about it, her son on the other hand was calling me all the names under the sun. He asked if I was proud of turning an old ladys heat and hot water off, to which I replied, atleast she would still be breathing in the morning. It turns out he didn't even live in the house but he was quite prepared to let his mother put up with an open flued mexico spilling, setting off the CO alarm (but it isn't really an alarm because the red led was not flashing ?!?.. ).The convincer was when I carried out a Flue flow test to get my point across and filled the hall with smoke, he kind of shut up after that.

 

[CMairiD]

Couldn't agree more there GM. I don't get a tinge of guilt these days either.

My favourite Croppie ID story is: Who guards the guards?.

Gives me a wee chuckle each time I think about it.

 

[Dotty]

Thank you CMairiD

I found out today that the Strabane job I ID'd was originally worked on by the very same guy responsible for the Castlerock deaths last year. Incidently, he and another fitter are currently on bail after having been arrested for questioning.

I couldn't help thinking of this thread and having a wry smile to myself as I thought "Bloody glad I did shut it down now!"

I'll keep you all informed of the outcome.