Side Entry Ball Valves (2 of 2)

[ShaunCorbs]

water board regs and wras regs people plz need to be 1000000000000000% right which way i go

Note This Is A Commercial Setting Eg Schools Etc Where High Traffic Is Normal

during the schools shut down (aka school hols) 3 (me, building inspector and water-board) of us went round inspecting the water and heating systems in schools, we do this every 3 years to look for problems and check water meters etc,

went to a well brand new school (2 years old approx) everything ok heating and meter wise etc, the last thing we have to check is toilets, undo the the concealed panels takes the lid off the cistern, water board guy takes a look for wasting water etc (jobs-worth ) and see a brass ball valve (part 1) extended arm (which i love brass ball valves because theres less wear and easy to change parts but thats going off point ) and hes says thats illegal so i take a look and theres a dcv on the incoming main just after the iso and hes still said its illegal as water can still back flow.

now before i challenge him i want to make sure im right and dont want to charge the local a shed load to change every valve in the school if i am

summary can you use a part 1 with a dcv and be water regs ok etc

if no what ball valve can i fit needs to have an extended arm (float arm) and would like it brass if pos, because he also said you cant use one of these with the plastic silence tube on as that one can back flow (part 3)

i think i have made it as clear as i pos can
any q please ask

 

[jaydebruyne]

As far I was aware, part 1 valves are not wras approved no matter if there's a dcv or not. An argument could be if the dcv failed, it could back flow. So will have to be either a part 2 or a fluidmaster type ballvalve..

 

[ShaunCorbs]

anyone like to comment?????????

 

[lame plumber]

go look in the wras book sold on amazon, covers every reg, mines in the van at present

 

[ShaunCorbs]

go look in the wras book sold on amazon, covers every reg, mines in the van at present

already looked the one i have says part 1 with dcv is ok now hes telling me no have they been updated ??????????

 

[plumben]

So what your saying is that you can no longer use a part 1 and dcv on a cold water supply connected directly to the mains

 

[jaydebruyne]

Gonna look at my book.. Back soon

 

[jaydebruyne]

already looked the one i have says part 1 with dcv is ok now hes telling me no have they been updated ??????????

What revision of the regs have you got?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What revision of the regs have you got?

dont have a clue old i would think round 2008 year

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So what your saying is that you can no longer use a part 1 and dcv on a cold water supply connected directly to the mains

yes or tank cant be used where water is involved

 

[solutions]

Yes sadly the jobsworth is right cant use a part 1 just use an adjustable arm part 2 from williams its what I use on syphon cisterns.
This is it.

 

[Old Account]

Any chancd sombody could explain me why we are not allowed to use a brass float arm ? What is a dcv ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes sadly the jobsworth is right cant use a part 1 just use an adjustable arm part 2 from williams its what I use on syphon cisterns.
This is it.

the problem is if i have to change them they would need to have an extended arm as most of them are plastic cisterns

and also is it right you cant use type 3 with the plastic bag tube either sol???????????

 

[solutions]

Any chancd sombody could explain me why we are not allowed to use a brass float arm ? What is a dcv ?

Dcv is a back flow prevention device.
Double check valve.
You can use brass float arms but they have to be part 2 tyoe and not part 1 as part 2 can not cause back syphoning as the water outlet from the valve set us at the top typically from a pkastic arm where as part 1 the water exits tge valve from a hole on the bottom that could come in to contact with the stored water in the custern and resukt in back syohoning and contamination of a mains water supply.

 

[Old Account]

Is that generally not use those with the plastic bag or just in your case ?

 

[solutions]

the problem is if i have to change them they would need to have an extended arm as most of them are plastic cisterns

and also is it right you cant use type 3 with the plastic bag tube either sol???????????

Yes also correct as they can and do back syphon.
Why the extended arm? Are the cisterns a special shape or size?

 

[Old Account]

Thanks first of all,

Basically I will need to install wherever I go the extended arm version to prevent back flow and also too installing a double check valve ?

 

[jaydebruyne]

Page 7.4 of the latest regs book

 

[jaydebruyne]

Dcv is a back flow prevention device.
Double check valve.
You can use brass float arms but they have to be part 2 tyoe and not part 1 as part 2 can not cause back syphoning as the water outlet from the valve set us at the top typically from a pkastic arm where as part 1 the water exits tge valve from a hole on the bottom that could come in to contact with the stored water in the custern and resukt in back syohoning and contamination of a mains water supply.

Another reason for having to use part 2 is often you have to bend the brass arm in order to set the water level correctly and this, as far as regs go, is not acceptable as it weakens the arm which could become brittle and break...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Page 7.4 of the latest regs book

whats the difference other than the looks if they both conform to bs1212

 

[solutions]

Thanks first of all,

Basically I will need to install wherever I go the extended arm version to prevent back flow and also too installing a double check valve ?

The type you will need to install is known as a part 2 valve. Looks like this

Or also like this

You dont need to also fit a dcv if using this valve.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes also correct as they can and do back syphon.
Why the extended arm? Are the cisterns a special shape or size?

yes plastic duo shells wider than normal so a normal part 2 the ball would be where the hole for the flush is

 

[Old Account]

Alright, talked enough ...

For me is clear now I will use part 2 including a double check valve instead isolation valve and I am on the safe side. That's all I wanted to know cheers all for the massive help

 

[Old Account]

But it's better to use a ISO valve before double check in case the double check is gone

 

[solutions]

yes plastic duo shells wider than normal so a normal part 2 the ball would be where the hole for the flush is

Might have to resort to a plastic part 2.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might have to resort to a plastic part 2.

was thinking that can you get a decent one because the ones ive seen are crud but then my thinking is that can still back up water level will have to be a bit higher but could still happen

 

[jaydebruyne]

the position of where the water exits the valve...

 

[solutions]

was thinking that can you get a decent one because the ones ive seen are crud but then my thinking is that can still back up water level will have to be a bit higher but could still happen

Even if they have a piped overflow set too high the water level would normally spill over the syphon in to the pan before it reached the outlet on a part 2.

 

[Old Account]

I am so happy we do not have such issues in Germany we hardly have tanks in the loft ... Gravity dies out there ... Most of the time we have geberit frames for toilets ...

 

[jaydebruyne]

Alright, talked enough ...

For me is clear now I will use part 2 including a double check valve instead isolation valve and I am on the safe side. That's all I wanted to know cheers all for the massive help

You don't need a dcv if using a part 2

 

[Old Account]

Alright so if I use pt2 then it's already build in ?

 

[jaydebruyne]

whats the difference other than the looks if they both conform to bs1212

The position of where the water exits the valve

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Even if they have a piped overflow set too high the water level would normally spill over the syphon in to the pan before it reached the outlet on a part 2.

it does now with a part 1 thats what i couldn't understand

 

[Old Account]

What will happen in the to me if I use a wrong float valve ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The position of where the water exits the valve

so they could both back if the water goes high enough