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Thom2014

Hi Guys,

Would really appreciate your advice on this one.

My husband and I run a p & h company. We've got a really difficult customer. I'll try and be brief cos its a bit long winded.

Updated a heating system including new TRVs to 2 rads.
Invoiced upon completion of work. Didnt hear anything for 8 days. Customer then called to say that she wasnt happy with angle of TRVS. They were fitted fine, just not happy.
That night 11.15 p.m. got a call to say major leak from the TRV, hubby went over within 7/8 minutes and stopped leak. Then spewnt some time using a Vax to get the water up, moving all furniture out of the room.
When he got to her house, she was standing at the front door with her neighbour just chatting. Not upset, crying etc Stangely, she had done nothing to try and smother the leak ie bowl, towel over it, what youd expect someone with a leak to do automatically. She also had her neighbours Vax machine already in the hallway!

We think shes either tried to cause a small leak to either delay payment, or caused a massive one cos she wants new carpets, money for stress etc.

Anyway, because we didnt know exactly caused the leak, we decided that as a goodwill gesture, we'd help as much as poss. Our friend used his industrial carpet cleaning stuff to get more water out of carpet. At her request, he also later cleaned the carpets (they didnt need it).

We also lent a dehumidifier which she wont return (the leak was nearly 2 and half months ago!) and my friend (carpet cleaner) lent a large fan. She has returned that.

Within a couple of days, she had painted the walls except the bit at the bottom where the water had seaped up. She says she now has a flaking patch. The bit of the wall shes referring to was behind furniture - maybe it was there before and she just didnt know! The house is 500+ years old.

On the night of the leak, we also had a friend request from her on facebook. We also discovered that immediately after hed left that night, she had given a commentary on what had happened including photos of my husband sorting the leak. He didnt know that she was taking photos!!

She's also now got a bee in her bonnet about the guy who fitted the TRV not being gas safe (he did it, hubby checked it!). She wants details of his qualifications! You dont need to be gas safe to fit a TRV!

She says that she couldnt use the room for a month (it took 3 days to dry when we had our carpets cleaned). The furniture was stored in a room in her house that she said she didnt use but now says that she could have people over because of the situation.

Where we are now is that she wont pay but wont say exactly why. Shes using delay tactics all the time. Its only £900 for gods sake, if she hasnt got it, id rather she just said!

Id really appreciate your thoughts on this. Please be nice, I'm so angry and frustrated with this situation.
 
Write to her, explain you think you've been reasonable and give her 7 days to either pay up or give very specific detail which you will pass to your Solicitor as to why she will not pay up and return any loaned equipment.
 
First thing I would do on discovering a leak is to isolate, then get bowls, buckets, towels, etc. Funny that she didn't. Sounds like a bit of an @r$£ to me! Advice from snowhead looks sound. Good luck!
 
She's being an idiot :(, lots of them about unfortunately :mad2:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tbh I dont have a lot of sympathy. Much of this situation is of your own making. I would hazardous a guess that somebody fiddled with the trv if the leak happened the same night as the earlier complaint. It would be hard for a new trv to generate a big leak on its own after 8 days.

Needed to be tougher with her from day 1. Put everything in writing but I think youve just played into her hands.

Maybe not what you want to hear but you say its now two and a half months since the leak. Lesson learnt for next time.
 
Thom2014 said:
Hi Guys,

Would really appreciate your advice on this one.

My husband and I run a p & h company. We've got a really difficult customer. I'll try and be brief cos its a bit long winded.

Updated a heating system including new TRVs to 2 rads.
Invoiced upon completion of work. Didnt hear anything for 8 days. Customer then called to say that she wasnt happy with angle of TRVS. They were fitted fine, just not happy.
That night 11.15 p.m. got a call to say major leak from the TRV, hubby went over within 7/8 minutes and stopped leak. Then spewnt some time using a Vax to get the water up, moving all furniture out of the room.
When he got to her house, she was standing at the front door with her neighbour just chatting. Not upset, crying etc Stangely, she had done nothing to try and smother the leak ie bowl, towel over it, what youd expect someone with a leak to do automatically. She also had her neighbours Vax machine already in the hallway!

We think shes either tried to cause a small leak to either delay payment, or caused a massive one cos she wants new carpets, money for stress etc.

Anyway, because we didnt know exactly caused the leak, we decided that as a goodwill gesture, we'd help as much as poss. Our friend used his industrial carpet cleaning stuff to get more water out of carpet. At her request, he also later cleaned the carpets (they didnt need it).

We also lent a dehumidifier which she wont return (the leak was nearly 2 and half months ago!) and my friend (carpet cleaner) lent a large fan. She has returned that.

Within a couple of days, she had painted the walls except the bit at the bottom where the water had seaped up. She says she now has a flaking patch. The bit of the wall shes referring to was behind furniture - maybe it was there before and she just didnt know! The house is 500+ years old.

On the night of the leak, we also had a friend request from her on facebook. We also discovered that immediately after hed left that night, she had given a commentary on what had happened including photos of my husband sorting the leak. He didnt know that she was taking photos!!

She's also now got a bee in her bonnet about the guy who fitted the TRV not being gas safe (he did it, hubby checked it!). She wants details of his qualifications! You dont need to be gas safe to fit a TRV!

She says that she couldnt use the room for a month (it took 3 days to dry when we had our carpets cleaned). The furniture was stored in a room in her house that she said she didnt use but now says that she could have people over because of the situation.

Where we are now is that she wont pay but wont say exactly why. Shes using delay tactics all the time. Its only £900 for gods sake, if she hasnt got it, id rather she just said!

Id really appreciate your thoughts on this. Please be nice, I'm so angry and frustrated with this situation.
Click to expand...




Go back, knock on her door, and ask her to hand over your dehumidifier.If she refuses, go to your local police station to report the theft of your dehumidifier.DO NOT TELL HER YOU'RE DOING THE AFOREMENTIONED, as she'll only remove it from her property.Police will go round gain access and return your item, that's if you can prove it's yours.
Once you've done this seek free legal advice, but be careful with solicitors as they'll try and draw it out until you're being invoiced for a large chunk.
Weigh up the cost of the solicitors fees against the £900 owed.
Bear in mind, she's saying the leak was caused by you.
You cannot prove she deliberately set out to cause the leak in order to turn you over, and I'm afraid proof is what you need.
She has pictures, images and God knows what showing the leak and damage caused; so legally she has you over a barrel.
Also, by taking round dehumidifiers and cleaners, like it or not, you have actually admitted liability!
No different for being involved in a car crash, getting out the car and saying "sorry"; liability admitted.

She's marked you down as a soft-touch.
Personally, I'd knock on the door, take my unpaid for property off the walls grab my dehumidifier and invite her to contact the police.
That's just me though.

You're only going to upset yourself over the her wrongdoing, so swallow and move on.
P.S. You should have a " All fixtures and fittings and equipment supplied remains the sole property of you until invoice is paid in full etc , etc" on all of your stationery.
Cover your back at all times, and trust no-one.
 
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:welcome: to the forum thom2014...:) Here's a link to your rights https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/payment-obligations

Your customer has to pay for the goods they agreed for regardless of any damage caused. End of the day your insurance company can deal with that side! may be worth giving them a call for advice, you may even have legal advice cover through your insurance! Have patience, don't loose your temper with them and follow the law! I doubt they'll be recomending you to friends and neighbours but Hey-Ho! :)
 
Defo debit collector. Sounds like a real tool. Neighbour was there as a witness. She knows how to work system. On benefits by any chance?
 
Dont know if shes on benefits but shes certainly a manipulative old lady!
 
wetdrip said:
Go back, knock on her door, and ask her to hand over your dehumidifier.If she refuses, go to your local police station to report the theft of your dehumidifier.DO NOT TELL HER YOU'RE DOING THE AFOREMENTIONED, as she'll only remove it from her property.Police will go round gain access and return your item, that's if you can prove it's yours.
Click to expand...
No they won't they will tell you it is a civil matter. They might speak to her for you if they have nothing better to do and feel sorry for you but that's it.
 
I agree with Simon you have taken too long to take action but better late than never.
You should go small claim court route.
I am sure you will find a link online and even on this forum somewhere.

Process:
Today - send her a final demand including a note that if payment is not received within 14 days you will begin court proceedings.

Then the process is really simple, you can DIY and it is cheap to do.
The down side is it takes ages but you have already waited over two months and it is a small amount.
I would also put every detail in writing now while you still can remember it and gather evidence now - because the actual court hearing could be in almost 12 months time.
Most cases do get settled before the court hearing.

Through the small claims process you can claim only the invoice amount (or less) and interest and up to £50 per day for appearing in court (I think).
So in our T&C we warn customers that there will be a £75 admin charge for each reminder for payment that we have to send after payment is 7 days over due.
That way they have some incentive to pay up on time, or if it goes to court we can offer to wave that charge for early settlement before the court hearing.

There are very few people like that that you have described - but they are out there and work long enough and you will meet them.
I think we have worked for her too!
 
Hi

We always get the customer to sign a loan form for any equipment e.g. fan heaters etc. might want to think about that for next time, sign for receipt and sign for return.

If it went to court the custmer could only claim for 'loss' which not using a room etc is hard to prove so would get very little or nothing!

I would contact my insurers first (which may be too late if a timescale is in the clauses) as if fraud is likely she may back off.

I would start a sequence of letters immediately requesting payment within a reasonable timescale or a response as to any reasons why so you can answer answer them individually. once you have a response you can escalate it to debt collectors, solicitors or other when you have her problems in writing.

If she doesn't respond then I guess you need to decide with solicitors or debt collectors which I would mention in the initial contact letter.

If in your opinion the trv was tampered with then next time I would go straight to the insurers as a loss adjuster will rule straight away.


Good Luck
 
DaveTidy said:
If it went to court the custmer could only claim for 'loss' which not using a room etc is hard to prove so would get very little or nothing!
Click to expand...

If you take customer to small claims court they can put in a counter claim.
However, if inconvenience of this sort, or distress caused, has no monetary value and nothing will be awarded to them.
It is all about actually money.

Another point - everyone should be very careful about loaning equipment to customers.
Was it safe - can you prove it was safe - did you give them written instructions and show them how to use it.
Some things are so obvious but people do misuse stuff - kill themselves and you could be blamed.
 
Final written demand for payment within 10 working days, then initiate small claims procedure online, no solicitor needed at all, cost £50 or so and simple to do, if she doesnt defend then case closed in your favour and she will have a county court judgement against her. If she defendends herself or counter sues you both get a morning in front of a judge and he will decide, no solicitors allowed. if you win judge will decide costs and payment terms. if she doesnt cough you can use court bailiff who has legal powers above any debt collector to get your cash simples
 
Hi Tara

Good point about the loan equipment, all items shuld be regularly pat tested and an instruction leaflet left to support your advice.

As regards a small claims court, the judge can settle in your favour but sometimes they still don't pay and you then have the choice of escalating it through the courts with additional costs!
 
Hi Guys, thank you for the advice.

The leak was 2 and half months ago but we have been in constant contact with her during that time. She claimed the floor took weeks to dry, then she said carpet was faded, shes now saying the wall is still wet!! We write to her regularly and she writes back with print outs of our website saying that our website was good and she thought we'd provide a good service! We bloody did! Its all delay tactics.

I am going to write to her today, be firm and say either pay up or be specific about why not paying and take it from there.

Thanks for all your advice, really do appreciate it.
 
Court case will more or less focus on what the customer says in her letters & what your letters/invoices contain, so make yours polite, to the point and professional, so that anyone reading them could only form the opinion that your company seems very decent & helpful.
 
you are allowed to assume the royal mail delivers the letters, after all the small claims process relies on basic mail as well :)
 
lame plumber said:
you are allowed to assume the royal mail delivers the letters, after all the small claims process relies on basic mail as well :)
Click to expand...

That's correct, ordinary post will do, but the other party could claim they didn't get some of the letters. Really a must to use registered post as it not only shows letters were received but very importantly it shows to the customer that you mean business & are preparing for a legal route by gathering proof of each letter. It is mind games as well as physical evidence gathering.
 
I had several customers like this in my first year of trading. There are people out there that prey on decent tradesmen and try it on and are experienced at getting out of paying. I wrote off my losses not wanting more stress and time wasted chasing it etc but learnt from it. For the last 6 years every job over say £500 gets a typed quote, a copy of which the cust signs and returns and a 50% deposit must be cleared before even ordering gear. The small print is so tight, the must pay in full on day of completion, no warranties will be registered till payment is made etc. It's a full A4 side I print on the back of both copies. Since doing this I have only had one customer try not paying the final amount and after I forcefully referred him to the contract he signed and demanded payment it soon came. Also if they have signed such a contract they are expecting to pay on the day you finish, I back this up by handing them an invoice on the last day of the job and will stand in the house until they write a cheque.

If you give these kind of people the chance play you they will. If they know they will be tied up legally before you start they behave or go elsewhere. If they still try it on then you need to come down on them like a ton of bricks and show them you mean business and that you will not be played like a fool. It's a battle of wills, they are like school bullies, they will only behave and comply if you show greater strength. Stop being nice, it's got you deeper into the problem. You are running a business, not a charity. Due to the recession there are alot more bad payers about these days. Regarding facebook, if you can block, delete etc anything she has put or any connection to her. If it's a personal page don't be friends with customers. If it's a business page can you prevent anyone commenting on it? It is a very risky thing, all you need is one vindictive person to badmouth you on there an it can spread like wildfire and kill your business. Does the work you get from facebook justify the risk?
 
albatross said:
I had several customers like this in my first year of trading. There are people out there that prey on decent tradesmen and try it on and are experienced at getting out of paying. I wrote off my losses not wanting more stress and time wasted chasing it etc but learnt from it. For the last 6 years every job over say £500 gets a typed quote, a copy of which the cust signs and returns and a 50% deposit must be cleared before even ordering gear. The small print is so tight, the must pay in full on day of completion, no warranties will be registered till payment is made etc. It's a full A4 side I print on the back of both copies. Since doing this I have only had one customer try not paying the final amount and after I forcefully referred him to the contract he signed and demanded payment it soon came. Also if they have signed such a contract they are expecting to pay on the day you finish, I back this up by handing them an invoice on the last day of the job and will stand in the house until they write a cheque.

If you give these kind of people the chance play you they will. If they know they will be tied up legally before you start they behave or go elsewhere. If they still try it on then you need to come down on them like a ton of bricks and show them you mean business and that you will not be played like a fool. It's a battle of wills, they are like school bullies, they will only behave and comply if you show greater strength. Stop being nice, it's got you deeper into the problem. You are running a business, not a charity. Due to the recession there are alot more bad payers about these days. Regarding facebook, if you can block, delete etc anything she has put or any connection to her. If it's a personal page don't be friends with customers. If it's a business page can you prevent anyone commenting on it? It is a very risky thing, all you need is one vindictive person to badmouth you on there an it can spread like wildfire and kill your business. Does the work you get from facebook justify the risk?
Click to expand...


Would love a copy of your terms and conditions.
 
TERMS.jpg

Section 5b is particularly amusing. I took it with me after a left Gasforce. They will have had it written by lawyers, I made a few adjustments. It's printed on the back of this which they sign:

Acceptance:
Mr & Mrs Smith
36 High Street
Town

12th January 2013

Quotation:
Supply and install:
One Worcester Greenstar 15Ri gas condensing boiler in garage.
Removal and disposal of existing boiler.
All associated pipework, wiring and installation.
Chemically flushing and treating of heating system.
Total: £2000.00

If you wish to proceed please sign below and return. A 50% deposit for £1000.00 will be required either transferred to the account below or by cheque with this acceptance.
Final payment due on day of completion.

I agree to the above quotation and terms and conditions (printed on the rear).

Signed_______________________

Print_________________________

Date_________________________
 
albatross said:
View attachment 16735

Section 5b is particularly amusing. I took it with me after a left Gasforce. They will have had it written by lawyers, I made a few adjustments. It's printed on the back of this which they sign:

Acceptance:
Mr & Mrs Smith
36 High Street
Town

12th January 2013

Quotation:
Supply and install:
One Worcester Greenstar 15Ri gas condensing boiler in garage.
Removal and disposal of existing boiler.
All associated pipework, wiring and installation.
Chemically flushing and treating of heating system.
Total: £2000.00

If you wish to proceed please sign below and return. A 50% deposit for £1000.00 will be required either transferred to the account below or by cheque with this acceptance.
Final payment due on day of completion.

I agree to the above quotation and terms and conditions (printed on the rear).

Signed_______________________

Print_________________________

Date_________________________
Click to expand...

I would appreciate a copy as well, if you wouldn't mind
 
I think if the roles were reversed I'd run a mile if a tradesman gave me that to sign, I can see why you're doing it though.
 
I was a bit confused about how safety shoes are going to save a life?

Save a toe maybe, but a life?
 
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