Have I been overcharged?

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NicolasR

Hey there, had some unfortunate problems with a local plumber.

We needed a new oil tank fitting, and as my partners father is a builder, he recommended us a plumber and sourced us a tank, cement for new base, and any other parts that were needed to install said tank.

The plumber came on day 1, and helped make the base while coming to diagnose a separate plumbing problem.
He spent around 4 hours working in the morning, dithered about my house for around an hour talking to himself while refusing to go in the loft as the problem 'wasn't up there' (despite it being an overflow leak, which turns out is from the hot water tank in the loft, as found by another plumber), took around an hour lunch, and went home.

Day 2, he came back to connect the oil tank up after lifting it onto the base and filling it with the oil from our old tank. He spent around 2-3 hours on this, at which point the boiler wasn't heating up properly. He spent a further 3 hours 'trying to work out' what the problem was, constantly changing his mind and talking to himself about what it could possibly be, going off to get a replacement part (that wasn't the problem), and generally not doing much. He probably took around an hour and a half to get the part + have lunch.

Day 3 he's decided he can't fix the problem, as it's a tiger loop failure (no idea what this is sadly, not a plumber), and gets in a boiler engineer to fix it. However, he decides to come along and supervise the boiler chap (I have no idea as to if this is a 1 or 2 man job) for around 3 hours.

At the end of the work, I advise him I'm not happy, and I'm not willing to pay him for all the time spent. He was very apologetic and said he wouldn't be charging full hours as he knows he'd spent too long, etc etc.

Got the bill through, and he's charged 12 hours labour, deducting 2.5 hours.

Also got charged 3 hours labour and parts from the boiler chap.

Is this a reasonable amount of time to spend doing the work (am I being irrational), or is the chap just looking for an easy pay day?

Sadly I have no quote from before the job was taken, as my partners father dealt with hiring him, and he informed us to install the new tank would cost 'no more than £400 total worst case'. Thus far it's cost around £900 with the father in law undercharging due to 'family rates', the boiler chap, and the plumber.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, if there's anything I can do, if I'm being unreasonable, etc etc.

Cheers!
 
I don't do Oil, but the £900 for 12 hrs.. seems high (£75 per hr.) did you not get a rate of him B4 he started, average day rate for a plumber £150 /£200 oil guy may charge a little more, one of the oil chaps on here would know .
 
IMPORTANT - Fitting an oil tank and fuel line is subject to Building Control so DO NOT hand over any cash until you get a green CD11 certificate from the plumber and an Installation Certificate from your Local Authority! Certification is a legal requirement under the Building Regulations and also without both certificates, any guarantee from the tank manufacturer or household insurance cover should there be a leak, fire or other incident is invalid!

Sounds like a non-oil plumber trying to be an oil engineer. 12 hours seems a bit excessive for putting in an oil tank especially that he did not have put in the concrete base all by himself.

I usually allow 4 to 6 hours for hooking up a tank (including sourcing it but not including laying the pipeline or making the concrete base). However all situations are different. You shouldn't really be charged for him messing around with the Tigerloop problem if he really didn't know what he was doing and he should have got the oil guy in at that point if that was the case, and I can't see why he hung around watching the oil guy either and he certainly shouldn't charge you for hanging around doing nothing.

Ask for a breakdown of the bill.
 
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First of all is the bloke oftec registered, as you are supposed to be to install an oil tank, or have you raised and paid for a building control notification who will inspect and register the installation.

I did a tank yesterday. On site at 8.00, away for 14.00, drained out 350 litres of oil, removed old tank and cut it up for disposal, sited new tank on existing base, 350 litres back in, changed fire valve and bled oil line. Cust got change from 300 plus cost of tank.

However as you didnt get a price up front then you dont really have a leg to stand on.

Normally you only get monkeys when you pay peanuts, but your monkey wants gold plated nuts.
 
Check the following:

Is the tank at least 1.8m from any flue, window or doorway (by the most direct route) or non-fire rated structure (garden shed etc) (applies to both yours and your neighbour's property)?

Does the concrete plinth extend at least 300mm around all sides of the tank beyond the tank base?

Is the tank at least 750mm from the neighbour's boundary if not fire rated (fire rated is a brick or stone structure without timber eaves etc in which case 100mm)?

Are the joints assembled using pipe stiffeners in the cut ends (a common fault of non-OFTEC people to miss them off) or flared fittings?

Has the pipe been laid in a trench at least 450mm deep and covered with sand, with a warning tape over the top if buried in the ground?

Is the fuel tank outlet filter accesible (could you change the element easily)?

Is the tank a double skinned (bunded) tank?

There are other legal requirements as well as these but these are the main ones. If your tank does not meet any of these, and / or has no certification, there is a good chance that it is an illegal installation.
 
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On my reading of the OP, the £900 included 3hrs of the "boiler man" time plus whatever the Father in Law charged at "family rates" for his part in it.

So assuming the boiler man charged £50 + VAT per hour (by no means unreasonable) x 3 hours that would be £180. And if father in law charged a couple of hundred quid, that would leave £520 or approx £36 plus VAT per hour. Which seems very reasonable indeed.

Its also not clear whether the £400 estimate came from the plumber being complained about, or from the father in law.

I always worry about these "have I been overcharged" threads. Would love to hear the other side of the story.
 
Just to clarify after Ray, what has the plumber actually charged you as his part of the work? Is the £900 just his bill? We are all assuming that it is.

However, even if what Ray says is actually the case, Although the rates Ray suggests are reasonable, I think the number of hours charged for seem excessive for amount of time one would expect the task to take.
 
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Hi Ray - I agree both sides are vital in most of these posts

When are you lot coming up here to the North West ?

centralheatking - we survived April 1 2014
 
WHPES said:
JI think the number of hours charged for seem excessive for amount of time one would expect the task to take.
Click to expand...

True. And thats the part where hearing the other side of the story would be helpful. There is a reference to "another plumbing problem" - a leak from an overflow which was solved by a different plumber, which makes me wonder if its all a bit more complicated that we are hearing.

Could just be me being a cynical old git. :)
 
why not ask your partners dad if its too much?

cant see how we can help other than give advise about any installation issue. What do you think is reasonable? some people take there bmw to a bmw garage and are happy to pay £120 an hour labour, some people take there bmw to a small garage and pay £35 an hour. We all have different ideas about these things.
 
Why didn't you get a quote first? Did you ask his rate?

If not, why?

This is what happens.

You needed something fixed and this guy was recommended.

IMO, you should have at least asked some questions like you are now but a bit late.

Live & learn,
 
Whether you have been overcharged or not, you still need the CD11 and LABC Installation Certificate.

Don't hand over any money until you get them!
 
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AWheating said:
why not ask your partners dad if its too much?

cant see how we can help other than give advise about any installation issue. What do you think is reasonable? some people take there bmw to a bmw garage and are happy to pay £120 an hour labour, some people take there bmw to a small garage and pay £35 an hour. We all have different ideas about these things.
Click to expand...


Wheres this garage that only charges £35 an hour :)
 
Quite a few round here, not those companies with the flashy showrooms and pretty receptionists though.
 
OK, so here's a breakdown of what happened, without any swing on it.
In hindsight I know I've been foolish with quotes etc, but at the moment having found out more information from your good selves, I'm not sure how legal this installation has been full stop.

Our metal oil tank had rusted heavily, and needed replacing due to danger of oil leaks.
My partner's father is a builder, so I gave him a ring to find out about plumbers, if it needed a new base, etc.

He came round, saw what had happened, and said he'd sort it all out, that it wouldn't cost more than £600 worst case.

Him and the plumber in question came round, on day one they drained the old tank and made the concrete base.
On day two, they both came, lifted the replacement tank onto the base, and filled it up/connected it.
At this point my partners father left, to save time/money. The plumber spent the next 3-4 hours trying to find why it wasn't starting properly, and after this time admitted defeat and called the boiler engineer out the next day, who fitted the new tiger loop.

So breakdown of costs with no 'sugar coating';

Partner's father, £250 labour and base materials, £200 oil tank (2 year old double bunded sourced second hand), he had done some work for us prior and didn't include a breakdown of labour, he had helped us with some woodwork in the house prior to this, included in this bill.

Plumber, £300 labour at £25/hour (12 hours), £26 parts (non return valve?)

Boiler chap, £170 for tiger loop + labour, and at present can't find his bill, but I believe it was around £35/hour labour off the top of my head, for 3 hours, and then rest was materials.

I suppose at this point (despite I'm sure this is largely my own stupidity in not checking things and trusting my partners father to sort things out legally) I should really be worrying how legal this installation is, and what I need to do to rectify any legal issues.

From what I (now) know, the plumber isn't OFTEC, and no building inspection has occurred on the oil tank installation.

Once again, I'm aware of how bad a situation this could be, and how I'm to blame.
I pretty much want to just get this sorted, regardless of cost at this point, due to having insurance worries, etc.
 
I could be wrong but OFTEC isn't a requirement is it? I thought you could install yourself and notify, not 100% certain though.

Plumbers prices don't seem too high, maybe try and deduct the time spent fault finding as he couldn't fix it. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the plumber not to charge for sourcing and buying your materials, unless of course you offered to do it for him and he refused to let you. If he had not been getting them while he was doing the job, he would have been getting them in the morning or evening in his own time and still charging.
 
NicolasR said:
OK, so here's a breakdown of what happened, without any swing on it.
In hindsight I know I've been foolish with quotes etc, but at the moment having found out more information from your good selves, I'm not sure how legal this installation has been full stop.

Our metal oil tank had rusted heavily, and needed replacing due to danger of oil leaks.
My partner's father is a builder, so I gave him a ring to find out about plumbers, if it needed a new base, etc.

He came round, saw what had happened, and said he'd sort it all out, that it wouldn't cost more than £600 worst case.

Him and the plumber in question came round, on day one they drained the old tank and made the concrete base.
On day two, they both came, lifted the replacement tank onto the base, and filled it up/connected it.
At this point my partners father left, to save time/money. The plumber spent the next 3-4 hours trying to find why it wasn't starting properly, and after this time admitted defeat and called the boiler engineer out the next day, who fitted the new tiger loop.

So breakdown of costs with no 'sugar coating';

Partner's father, £250 labour and base materials, £200 oil tank (2 year old double bunded sourced second hand), he had done some work for us prior and didn't include a breakdown of labour, he had helped us with some woodwork in the house prior to this, included in this bill.

Plumber, £300 labour at £25/hour (12 hours), £26 parts (non return valve?)

Boiler chap, £170 for tiger loop + labour, and at present can't find his bill, but I believe it was around £35/hour labour off the top of my head, for 3 hours, and then rest was materials.

I suppose at this point (despite I'm sure this is largely my own stupidity in not checking things and trusting my partners father to sort things out legally) I should really be worrying how legal this installation is, and what I need to do to rectify any legal issues.

From what I (now) know, the plumber isn't OFTEC, and no building inspection has occurred on the oil tank installation.

Once again, I'm aware of how bad a situation this could be, and how I'm to blame.
I pretty much want to just get this sorted, regardless of cost at this point, due to having insurance worries, etc.
Click to expand...

Second hand tank, oh dear. Sounds ver much like bodge it and scarper.

You have two choices.

Pay the bill, stop complaining and hope there's nothing wrong. Because if something does go wrong you will be potentially looking at a rather bill. Possibly into the tens of thousands.

Or

Get a competent person to look at the install, correct any defects and point you in the right direction for building control. Nobody in there right mind would take on the responsibility of a second hand tank. I think up our way its about £225 for a building control inspection.

To be honest I think you are screwed, but hey, good luck.
 
Worse things happen at sea. Try not to panic as its not the end of the world. I do agree however that its more than annoying that an unqualified guy is doing this work, why should the rest of us have to cough up for training and membership fees just to have idiots like him steal work.

Get a good engineer off check a trade and get it sorted for your own piece of mind. After this has been done contact the plumber and tell him what you had to do. Offer him a nominal amount just to walk away - say £150.

Pay your father in law in full, just to keep the peace.

Direct family members charging for work is a new one on me. My father in law is a builder we dont charge each other for working on the others house, just materials. But each family is different I guess.
 
NicolasR said:
Hey there, had some unfortunate problems with a local plumber.

We needed a new oil tank fitting, and as my partners father is a builder, he recommended us a plumber and sourced us a tank, cement for new base, and any other parts that were needed to install said tank.

The plumber came on day 1, and helped make the base while coming to diagnose a separate plumbing problem.
He spent around 4 hours working in the morning, dithered about my house for around an hour talking to himself while refusing to go in the loft as the problem 'wasn't up there' (despite it being an overflow leak, which turns out is from the hot water tank in the loft, as found by another plumber), took around an hour lunch, and went home.

Day 2, he came back to connect the oil tank up after lifting it onto the base and filling it with the oil from our old tank. He spent around 2-3 hours on this, at which point the boiler wasn't heating up properly. He spent a further 3 hours 'trying to work out' what the problem was, constantly changing his mind and talking to himself about what it could possibly be, going off to get a replacement part (that wasn't the problem), and generally not doing much. He probably took around an hour and a half to get the part + have lunch.

Day 3 he's decided he can't fix the problem, as it's a tiger loop failure (no idea what this is sadly, not a plumber), and gets in a boiler engineer to fix it. However, he decides to come along and supervise the boiler chap (I have no idea as to if this is a 1 or 2 man job) for around 3 hours.

At the end of the work, I advise him I'm not happy, and I'm not willing to pay him for all the time spent. He was very apologetic and said he wouldn't be charging full hours as he knows he'd spent too long, etc etc.

Got the bill through, and he's charged 12 hours labour, deducting 2.5 hours.

Also got charged 3 hours labour and parts from the boiler chap.

Is this a reasonable amount of time to spend doing the work (am I being irrational), or is the chap just looking for an easy pay day?

Sadly I have no quote from before the job was taken, as my partners father dealt with hiring him, and he informed us to install the new tank would cost 'no more than £400 total worst case'. Thus far it's cost around £900 with the father in law undercharging due to 'family rates', the boiler chap, and the plumber.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, if there's anything I can do, if I'm being unreasonable, etc etc.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Did you also complain to your plumber for him getting it all sorted for you ???
 
brilliant set of posts that lead me to think that your better off paying full price for a new tank through an oftec registered technician, but I would say that :) and my prices would include a working boiler :)
 
lame plumber said:
brilliant set of posts that lead me to think that your better off paying full price for a new tank through an oftec registered technician, but I would say that :) and my prices would include a working boiler :)
Click to expand...

I think a working boiler would be the minimum on offer, and work from there.

Just like a bloke round our way. He can service, supposedly, oil oilers, but he can't repair them. If he switches it on after the service and it doesn't work he has to call somebody else out :)
 
So the issues is, did he do 12 hours work?

The rate is reasonable for a plumber (rather than an oil technician)

What at the other guy charged to make it work is reasonable.

Presumably your father in law didn't rip you off on materials, so that's reasonable.

I would guess they took the best part of a day to drain the old tank and make the base? Say 8hrs?

If the hours don't tally just speak to him, suggest the hours you feel he was being productive for and go from there, not much anyone on here can do considering you've gone about arranging the whole job in a less than perfect way (family and work don't mix!)
 
I could be wrong but OFTEC isn't a requirement is it? I thought you could install yourself and notify, not 100% certain though.
Click to expand...
.

Yes if you install it yourself you can pay £200 for a Building Inspector to sign it off. But the customer did not install it themselves so the plumber is acting illegally if they do not notify it. Also if it is a second hand tank, is it a single skinned tank? If so, I would be very wary.

I repeat, do NOT hand over any money until you have the CD11 certificate and the Building Control certificate. This is an absolute legal requirement and the installer has a duty to provide these and you are totally within your rights to withold payment until you have them. Without them you have an illegal installation and your insurance is potentially invalid.
 
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WHPES said:
.

Yes if you install it yourself you can pay £200 for a Building Inspector to sign it off. But the customer did not install it themselves so the plumber is acting illegally if they do not notify it. Also if it is a second hand tank, is it a single skinned tank? If so, I would be very wary.

I repeat, do NOT hand over any money until you have the CD11 certificate and the Building Control certificate. This is an absolute legal requirement and the installer has a duty to provide these and you are totally within your rights to with hold payment until you have them. Without them you have an illegal installation and your insurance is potentially invalid.
Click to expand...

Could the plumber not install it himself and then pay the £200 fee then, from what I have read I thought that was the case. Still best to get an OFTEC fitter of course. In this case though it seems obvious that the plumber isn't OFTEC and hasn't paid the £200 fee.

In the same way that saying you need a Part P registered electrician to carryout certain electrical work in domestic properties isn't true.

:vanish:
 
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Yes but plumber would need to submit a building notice 48hrs before work is due to commence. Then the LABC will give him a pretty hard ride . Not fun
 
Would end up costing more than using an OFTEC tecnhician able to self certify.
 
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