frozen Pipes - 13 days in

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desparate

help

our pipes have been frozen since Christmas Eve
Scottish Water say it isn't them and we have to wait, possibly until Feb!!!!

we've tried all the stuff with hairdryers, heat guns etc
neighbours have water
everything is bone dry no drips
no evidence outside of burst
have a drive about 25 feet then pipes run under concrete garage, we think
we have concrete floors and my OH doesn't think the pipes are deep enough
4 adults in the house, water situation is a nightmare
surely there must be a way of finding out if its burst?
will my insurance company pay for investigations? ie digging up drive?
desparate doesn't even touch it now!
 
Know exactly how you feel mate - we're in the same boat for fast appraching 4 weeks! SW on their way again today to do some kind of tracing and if necessary dig up the toby and comms pipe to check it. Really had to push them hard for that. Got 2 weeks of "have to wait till it thaws" etc from the "help" line. Not even an offer of bottled water either. Now that the mains issues are mostly celared up and their full squads back after the break, you probably be able to get them back out to fully investigate.

Only way to find out if it's burst is to excavate the pipe - SW told me the pipe under the lawn/drive etc is unlikely to break but does happen occasionally. The guy who was out has only seen a handful in over 10 years on the road with SW. Standard buildings insurance will not be any help unless you have water damage (defenition policy dependant) and they certainly are unlikely to pay for an investigation. Specialist pipe cover only can help for that I'm afraid but as always best check with your insurance company anyway.

Good luck with it - I'll keep you posted how our sit develops later today.
 
thanks for this
just had a very fraught conversation with the "helpline", whereupon someone from Ireland told me it wasn't his water as he didn't work for SW and that if I explained the situation, he would "run it by" someone! H also said he had been told not to pass on people to SW. Told him he would be starring in a daily record investigation tomorrow and phoned another no for SW. They have agreed to open the case again and do an investigation, also to deliver some water, will keep you posted as well
I'm (obviously) not a plumber but if we can dig an tunnel under the channel why can't they find a bit of ice or whatever in a pipe in my wee garden?
 
It is very unlikely your pipes frozen. It has been above freezing for more than a week now.
If there was an underground burst big enough to completely stop you getting water to the house it would be coming up through the ground by now unless it is getting into a broken drain. If you live in an estate it is unlikely to be a SW problem. If however you live rural where the nearest house is a good bit away, it could be.

If you know where the toby is lift the cover and put a piece of wood down and rest it on the valve then put your ear to the end of the piece of wood.
If there is a burst under the ground you will hear it.

Either that or bite the bullet and ring a plumber.
 
Well, I'm not an expert but I would hold back on the plumber until SW have completed a full and proper investigation first into the supply, as is their obligation. They came back to mine last night having actually checked which toby was mine and lo and behold the one they turned and cleaned up on Tue night was the wrong one! You would think SW would have maps and plans on the engineers laptops but apparently record keeping of such things has been less than diligent over the years to say the very least. Added to the problem as well, some CATV companies have covered some tobys when filling in their excavations.

There is a puddle on the pavement at the end of our driveway, within a metre of the toby at exactly the point where the pipe probably has a joint and will come up our driveway, which has been there for over a week now and is not draining, so this is starting to add-up to what looks like a burst comms pipe i.e. SW responsibility. Could still be within our boundary so I'll have to wait and see.

For me this is something the water board needs to check and validate as one of the first steps on the diagnostic checklist for water outage. I can understand with the weather we had that the help-lines (Including SW's Irish overflow line - outsourced call centre in NI I believe) were trained to avoid a lot of dispatch, but for a customer to have no water for a month is madness.

Let's see what the next 24-48 hours bring...
 
thanks for this
after i gave SW a really hard time yesterday (threatening expose in the Daily Record) a very nice man came out last night at 9.30pm. he was much more thorough than the first man, checked the tobey and the one up the road and pronounced that it needs moving downwards. He has put us on an urgent list for this to be done, so hopefully.................. We have no evidence of a burst anywhere, we've been checking regularly all around the house. i find it totally incredible that they don't appear to know where the pipes are and that there is no "fix" for frozen pipes, things have definitely been slipping over the years here. Did a bit of research on the net yesterday and they appear to be able to fix it in Alaska................ Our man did say that a great many people were still frozen and that's why he turned up so late.............
 
I have same problem, in Stepps Glasgow. We've had no water since 23 Dec. Got a friend plumber to come round and check the stopcock in house. He took that apart, and definately no water coming into the house. We have a 20 metre drive from the lane we are in, Toby is in the lane. When I eventually got access to the Toby when the ice and snow had cleared, it was filled with ice cold water that wasn't draining - I assume because there was ice below it all surrounding the pipe and stopping any water drainage. Anyway, I tried 4 or 5 kettles in the Toby - that cleared the build up of ice cold water (confirming to me that there probably was ice down there) but still no joy with water into the house.

Scottish Water eventually came out on Sunday night, the guy got some machine out which showed that no water was flowing in the Toby - ie there is a blocakge somewhere but no leak. As far as he was concerned it is a freeze under the drive. He then left, doing nothing else - not very useful.

It then got me thinking, the likelihood, given the build up of ice and cold water in the Toby, was that the freeze started in the Toby and has worked it's way back through the pipes to under my drive. So its a bit disengenuous of SW to say that it has nothing to do with them if the freeze is currently on my property, especially if the problem started at their asset (which to be fair is speculation by me, but with some substance). So I called again last night demanding that they dig up and deal with it, from the Toby onwards towards my drive if necessary. Called them today, as I had heard nothing. "You haven't been assigned as a job yet" was the response. Will call again tonight to harrass them more. Apparrently there are still hundreds of households in a similar position.
What a nightmare......
 
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sounds very much like our situation, my view is that they supply the water, I have provided a pipe, their commodity(the water) has stalled in my pipe, and they don't know what to do, the guy last night said it was unprecedented, which is fair enough, but what are we supposed to do, wait until Spring??? (which actually was what the first guy suggested) It is so frustating, inconvienient, dirty, expensive and generally a pain in the but, a friend down south suggested they should set up a stand pipe somewhere, does this sound like a help?
 
It's a good point regarding the responsibility. If the rising main wasn't frozen under the sink or at entry point, and the toby was frozen then the point of failure was within SW responsibility. As they dispatched no-one to check when you reported it and the problem therefore spread as a result then I'd agree with you that they have to deal with it. The comment made by their Operations Director on Reporting Scotland 2 nights back was that at this point whether the issue is mains or customer related "is immaterial now and we're doing all we can to restore our customer's supplies".

I've had another long saga with them today trying to even get confirmation of the urgent appointment to dig up the pipe. After 7-8 calls, many overflowing to the useless call centre in Belfast and 4 failed callback promises, they eventually said they'd be out this afternoon definitely. It's nearly 6pm and no sign...the saga continues...
 
Thanks desparate, I will be using your simple view of the ownership of the problem in my call tonight. We actually have a neighbour who has hooked up a hose to his outside tap and has left it hanging over the fence, so at least I can fill up buckets outside whenever I want without harassing him, but it's scant consolation.

The SW guy who came to see us on Sunday suggested hooking the hose up to the neighbours hot water tap and pouring hot water over the drive for a couple of hours. What a nice neighbour that would be - letting me whack up his gas bill in the middle of winter - aye right.

I will be demanding to speak to a person who schedules jobs tonight (rather than call centre staff), and not putting the phone down until I speak to someone.

Will let you know how I get on.
 
DavidK / Desparate - SW onsite now and the dig has started. I'll update you guys later...this is beginning to feel like a blog or something.
 
thanks Derek, no one here, just girding my loins for a few phonecalls again..............
 
Will be good to hear your update Derek.
I have been promised someone on-site today. I'll give them till mid afternoon before phoning back if there has been no contact.
Day 16 for us now.
On the slightly positive side, someone from SW actually called me about 30 mins ago asking if the water supply is back on. She had no knowledge of my calls and latest Service Request number over the last few days, but has vowed to chase the whole thing up. They are clearly starting to find their feet a bit with resources becoming available. Just a pity that we are at the tail end :(
 
No joy. Water flowing after the toby no problem, although the depth it is buried is around 20cm so it seems clear to me that this will need to be addressed anyway later to avoid future problems (both at the pavement and in our grounds). So we're back to the frozen pipe scenario. Another SW contractor is coming to try to thaw the pipe - this has apparently had some success (30% chance according to one of the blokes who was here). Another idea is to apply a steam gun down the pipe, which would eventually thaw it. I'll let you know how he gets on if and when he arrives...
 
It's amazing how there's one rule (750 mm deep) for us and 200mm for them .. I noticed on the news that the Northern Ireland pipes were not very deep either. WTF's the point of OFWAT???

Maybe there's an opportunity for some class action litigation??
 
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Derek - do you mean water flowing after the Toby towards the main street supply? Presumably nothing is flowing towards your pipes as they are blocked. That's a pain. At least they are being constructive with their plans to try to thaw for you.
Given the depth of the Toby, and the probability that there was Ice in there from the street, it seems more likely to me that the problem started out in Toby on the street, where it is cold and close to the surfcace, than near your up-rising pipe to the house (where it is warmer), or under your drive/lawn (where the soil does have some residual warmth). It would then spread into your pipes. Again I'm no expert, but this would seem reasonable and logical. Given that the thaw occurs from the warmest point backwards, it would also seem logical that whilst the Toby is now unfrozen, there is still an ice 'slug' (as I have heard it called elsewhere) in your under-drive pipes that the thaw hasn't reached.
 
No there is water getting to the pipe after the toby - into the post toby comms pipe and probably then to my boundary...if they can't thaw it then I'll make them dig the extra 2 feet to check anyway. There's no way to ascertain for sure from which end the freeze began but I agree with DavidK logic. SW would no doubt claim that since the neighbours are fine and there is water after the external stop valve, it must be blocked further up i.e. my problem.

Anyway, let's hope the wee man on his way from East Kilbride can sort it our, otherwise I have a long afternoon and evening of applying heat to a pipe using a steam cleaner. I'm not even sure that would give enought heat but we're desparate enought to do whatever it takes.
 
Just had a shouting match with the ignoramuses on the "helpline" who once again appear to have no record that we have a problem. finally after going through a manager and shouting again, finally actually got through to a SW rep in Dunfermline who at least was sympathetic but not that helpful. We are on the list for "further work" but they can't say when, may be a few days. She's never heard of any remedy for frozen pipes other than waiting until it thaws. Some answer, isn't clean water one of the sacred human rights? Oh we're in Scotland, SW can't do anything cos they don't know how so we just have to wait. Fabulous
 
Well, some progress. Using a manually operated water pump the guy pumped hot water up the pipe from just after the toby. After about 45 mins we could see the pressure building each time, at first it would come back down rapidly, so we must have been melting it slowly but surely...the pipe is about 10-15 metres. Unfortunately, as his boss was chasing him up I think he got over zealous with the machine pumping and the back pressure burst the pipe just at the new joint made by the chaps this morning! They will now have to come back and excavate further up the pipe to repair it as it's still not within our boundary. At least we know now that it is definitely frozen but whether they'll keep going with that method or not I'm not sure. It was working so I hope so. Keep you posted...
 
I now have a confirmed 'dig' appointment for tomorrow to excavate the Toby, so will keep you posted on progress.
DerekS, any good news?
 
hope the dig goes well
sounds like a bit of progress
I've had an email back from my complaint about the so called "helpline"
plumber friend told us to barricade all the air vents in the brickwork as they just decrease the temperature, will do this in the morning in the absence of SW.
 
Well folks, I have water but only thanks to the goodness of my neighbour's heart. We have a new garden hose connected between our outside tap which has enabled mains pressure through the system - amazingly to me with no loss of pressure either house. Of course we will need a tap running constantly to prevent our temporary friend freezing up. A top temperature in North Lanarkshire of -2 today...lovely.

So....we tried for 2 hour pumping hot water up the pipe...nothing. Pressure building in the pipe so it ain't burst, just frozen solid. Tried another hour from the other end...nothing. A further 2 hours with the steam gun...seemed to be making progress but the guys were getting chased big style by their boss' big boss to get to the next job (Sorry David I did eat a lot of their time today!) so after nearly a whole day we've bitten the bullet and gone with the temporary supply.

On Monday I'll be tackling Scottish Water regarding the 15cm depth of supply. When they correct that I'll have a new, fully insulated main pipe laid. There is no way in hell we're going through this again...cost is no longer a concern...well a huge one anyway.

Best of luck to the rest of you guys...and thanks a million for your support in the last days.

On the plus side of all this I know a lot more about plumbing and water/heating systems than I did a few weeks ago!
 
well guys at 7.08pm our water started to flow!!!! Cue enormous cheers in this household. We are delighted but totally puzzled, its been under 0 all day and getting colder by the minute, and the water came back on just as normal, no trickling, went from bone dry to full pressure in the blink of an eye. Its puzzling but as we have a supply, we don't really care, terrified to turn it off now in case it freezes again or the phantom tobey twirler strikes again. i have made a long and detailed complaint to scottish water, their service has been non existant and their "helpline" a joke. They should be taking a good look at themselves and how they run that business, could do better with one man and a dog!!

Good luck guys, I really hope the magic happens for you, they answer may be to just ignore it cos that's what we've done for the last two days!!
 
excellent, thats great news desperate. Can I get your username now! :)
Hopefully I will have some joy tomorrow with SW.
Good to see you have an interim solution also DerekS

The great thing about forums like these is that it really is a case of a problem shared is a problem halved..

Cheers
David
 
cheers guys, I have done a very detailed and exact complaint to SW. Their response to us was worse than useless and their "helpline" a joke, bearing in mind we as taxpayers pay for this. I'm still puzzled as to what happened, we were totally bone dry, absolutely nothing in the taps and then we just had a normal flow, no bangs, explosions etc, just like it had never been away. In my experience melting something usually produces drips and dribbles first so definitely a bit of a mystery.
Good luck, hope it happens soon, as the temperature appears to have absolutely no bearing on this
 
Isnt it funny the same time that this is happening to people ie outside incoming mains frozen that water companies are pushing insurance schemes for this
Are these companies becoming ambulance chasers too
And considering the way the increase in water bills has creeped up at a higher rate than council tax
 
Finally have some water - the contractors working for SW dug up the toby (which had water) and tried the hot water pressure trick to no avail (DerekS I think it was the same guys who worked for you as I knew every bit of the story of another job they were telling me about!). Ended up putting in a temp overland supply patched in from the Toby to our own supply pipes at the point where they enter the house, which we dug down to find.

Still not sure of the ultimate cause - the freeze is currently under our drive somewhere. The contractors are convinced that if we lift the monoblock there will be some piping that is nowhere near deep enough - something I will be taking up with the builders - either way I'm not leaving it to chance next year - I will be getting the same guys back to put a new supply at the correct depth in a few weeks time.
So, still some work to do, but for now we have hot and cold water, and flushing toilets - amazing how something so simple can seem like a luxury.
 
Finally have some water - the contractors working for SW dug up the toby (which had water) and tried the hot water pressure trick to no avail (DerekS I think it was the same guys who worked for you as I knew every bit of the story of another job they were telling me about!). Ended up putting in a temp overland supply patched in from the Toby to our own supply pipes at the point where they enter the house, which we dug down to find.

Still not sure of the ultimate cause - the freeze is currently under our drive somewhere. The contractors are convinced that if we lift the monoblock there will be some piping that is nowhere near deep enough - something I will be taking up with the builders - either way I'm not leaving it to chance next year - I will be getting the same guys back to put a new supply at the correct depth in a few weeks time.
So, still some work to do, but for now we have hot and cold water, and flushing toilets - amazing how something so simple can seem like a luxury.
 
glad to hear you've got water. we still have water but eveyone we've spoken to is totally mystified as to why it should cme back after a day of sub-zero temps and when it was actually getting colder. looks like it will remain a mystery............
 
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