what is it with some sparks and wiring up heating

[< 0.004 = :-)]

doing some installs for an HA, conv to combis. also the existing hard wired stat to be renewed and 2 channel programmer replaced with a single. , said i ll do the wiring as well, just get your spark to check, test and issue minor works cert. no its ok , we ll use our own electrician to wire and connect boiler and controls.
today i m just about to fit a temp plug top to pre wired flex on boiler to fire up when 2 electricians and a laddie turn up. 4 1/2 hours they re there for a job that should ve taken 1 man 1 hour tops. then i hear 1 of them say i v no 5 core in the van , we ll need to use 6 core.
ask him what he needs the 5 core for and he says the switch wires to the combi. switch wires to the combi? (there's only 1 switch wire from the stat/clock) they d already run a 4 core , then for some unknown reason decided they needed a 5 core and pulled it out only to re-run the 4 in again. unbelievable.
i m a daft plumber to trade, not too hot at lead bashing/burning, but can pipe and wire up systems with twinned boilers wired with relays,multi heating zones/stats,frost stats,unvented cyl and pumped dhwr and have them fire and run fine 1st time.
suppose if all your doing is replacing lightbulbs and fans and tracing a faulty kettle thats causing a breaker to trip, then your not used to wiring up heating, but i v worked with loads of spraks who toil with heating yet they re wiring 2,3,4.....way switches without any probs?
on a rant here, 2 sparks and laddie 5 1/2 hours by the time they d finished to swap a roomstat (that now doesn t work) , run a cable 7m, and connect boiler . i should ve been finished commissioning , flushing and handing over at haf 4 latest, didn t get in the house till well after 9.
they also wrecked the kitchen high level pipeboxes to run cable to boiler, when a length of mini trunking would ve looked fine(beading allready fitted around other 3 sides of ceiling), said the brand new roomstat was faulty so they ll be back and fitted the new timeswitch at the side of the tenants fridge where she can t get the flap down to access the settings buttons, and the cabling to the boiler is a joke, no clips , just dangling in a big loop.
going to suggest to the HA that i supply the spark, the BG subby sparks i v worked with would ve had it done and dusted in 45 mins, proper tidy job and the tenant wouldnt be needing to redecorate her kitchen either lol

 

[sparky3366]

Some combi wiring instructions are misleading, worcester bosch say 5 core if you wire by their instructions with live feed in, then out then back on a switched live. Obliously not needed if you know the boiler, but some sparks unfamiliar with the boiler would do it that way.
After seeing some shocking (no pun intended) wiring off some of the total trades sparks (yes I was one) Im surprised the boiler worked at all. I had the nice job of correcting their mistakes and there was plenty of them...
I never used to use any of the existing wiring for combi's or Y/S plan systems as it could take too long to trace/test the existing wiring...quicker to rewire in most cases.
I agree that there are some real idiots wiring systems in...but not all sparks are that bad...honest

 

[gaspastemania]

I am far from being a sparky and heve no confidence in doing anything other than the very basics but i know what you mean . I have come across many sparks who dont like doing heating controls.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

nothing will surprise me on HA jobs , have been doing 5 boilers a week !

 

[maddfridge]

hi gents

come on now you are talking domestic stuff you want to try the bms world of pain.

the humble sparky is at the mercy of the plumber chucking a bolier in and then the bms bloke doing his bit then when it goes wrong they blame the sparks in the middle.

conclusion plumbers do not all understand boilers
electricians do not always understand how the boiler works
the bms bloke know his bit and does not understand plumbingf or electrics on the boiler usually as his bit switches relays etc

so there are not many sparks who understand the full depth of hvac
and air conditioning well

been playing with the wet side of things lately heres one bolier locks out low water pressure loads of water loads of heat ?

must be controls all checks out?
boiler fault codes all tally
power every where
pumps run??

how about a hidden water softner in a cupboard when on refreshing takes all the water out of the storage and pumps it back you guessed in to the expansion tank which is not in use as the new system is a sealed one!!!!!
got me that one.

sealed system mains water softner before pressure vessel ??????


enough to drive a man insane some times

hope you now can see why sparks sometime do not like heating controls

 

[Destroyer2813]

Some sparks aint got a clue or struggle to wire heating systems and some are good, fortunatly i know a really good one but on the flip side i know one who is painfull to watch wiring heating systems but as its the builders spark have to just let him get on with it.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

if i need a blood transfusion in the future and its come from a spark tell them i would rather die,a quote from a mate of mine who did not like sparks at all

 

[armourer]

I fitted a boiler in my mates house (mates rates , he provided the beer!) and hes a domestic sparks.

He was looking into it and made it far too complicated. I sorted the wiring to stat and controls and afterwards he said that was impressive.

I also remember when a mate I used to work with went on the part P course when it first come out and was insistent that the meter bonding had to be 15mm according to 17th edition.

As gas engineers we only have to make sure we are compliant with gas regs not Elec regs. If you look into it there are many discrepancy's between the two.

I am qualified limited part P (in other words I do all my own electrics if it is associated with a gas appliance).
Best keep the Leckies out of it.
If you are any sort of engineer you should do it yourself as you are the one that understands how the appliance works.

 

[Puddle]

if i need a blood transfusion in the future and its come from a spark tell them i would rather die,a quote from a mate of mine who did not like sparks at all

And dislikes life more !!

I find electricians ok as long as they do not speak, I can not see why they find wiring heating systems so hard,I see them design and install far more complicated systems yet when it come to heating systems,its like a big cloud descends on them

imho

 

[dontknowitall]

Why do all sparks have spikey hair? I mean you don't see plumbers going around with wet hair.

 

[Halesowen1]

I wire my own boilers and fit wireless stats on all jobs if not an easy position for stat/programmer. Keeps the cost down and nobody to blame then but me.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Why do all sparks have spikey hair? I mean you don't see plumbers going around with wet hair.

cos we dnt stick our fingers in the fuse box before isolated from the consumer unit ,

i dislike them to !

 

[tamz]

I have always wired my own heating stuff. I can do it with my eyes shut.
Recently i got pulled by a cust over a minor works cert so decided to sub the wiring out. I have since had 4 different sparks, all good electricians but all totally clueless on heating who all take forever and cost me a lot more than their cost in downtime telling then how to do it and waiting on them faffing around.
I am seriously considering becoming a course cowboy for electrics just to free myself from these idiots.

 

[gaspastemania]

Why do all sparks have spikey hair? I mean you don't see plumbers going around with wet hair.

haha we all used to joke about this on site , they would turn up hair all groomed well shaved and sunglasses on (sunny or not)

Plumbers/pipefitters turned up covered in silicone/jointing compound unshaven like we just got in after a heavy night .As we all use to say to them when on site make way for the superior trade .

 

[stevetheplumber]

Some combi wiring instructions are misleading, worcester bosch say 5 core if you wire by their instructions with live feed in, then out then back on a switched live. Obliously not needed if you know the boiler, but some sparks unfamiliar with the boiler would do it that way.
After seeing some shocking (no pun intended) wiring off some of the total trades sparks (yes I was one) Im surprised the boiler worked at all. I had the nice job of correcting their mistakes and there was plenty of them...
I never used to use any of the existing wiring for combi's or Y/S plan systems as it could take too long to trace/test the existing wiring...quicker to rewire in most cases.
I agree that there are some real idiots wiring systems in...but not all sparks are that bad...honest

im not familiar with WB boilers but on the older vailants not using the feed out resulted in no overheat stat as the internal wiring cut the power out via the overheat stat possibly its dirent now were more electronic

 

[< 0.004 = :-)]

so it s not just the sparks i v met then
somebody else mentioned it, it s like a mental block when it comes to heating with some . they ve just completely re-wired an old town house on 4 levels with 4 gang, 4 way switches no probs , but the heating causes them grief .
its a part of the job i quite enjoy, the more cables coming into the junction box , the more satisfying when its works first time.
i v seen sparks sitting for hours at the junction box with there metre beeping away , and the air turning blue lol
earths together , neutrals together , permanent lives together and take the switch wires for a walk , simples

 

[tipintim]

Why do all sparks have spikey hair? I mean you don't see plumbers going around with wet hair.

All sparks I know are BALD. Must be something wronge

 

[digc]

I'm a sparky by trade and gassafe regs too and I have say that I agree with most the coments. Most the the sparks I've worked with talk the talk but don't have a clue on the heating wiring and have there head up there ars LOL

Craig

 

[Mbear]

I think they give the wiring diagram to sparks in Chinese. I just don't get what they find so hard about it. Give them a 3port zone valve to wire and u can see the beeds of nervous sweat running down their face lol

 

[armourer]

Most older Plumbers I know are fine on wiring and diagnoses of fully wired Y and S plans.
Newer Combi installs are a piece of cake (L,N,E,SL).

I'm with Halesowen on all new installs I do now, its just easier and quicker to quote for a chronotherm wireless.

I must admit to being stumped a couple of times on very old systems that have no 10 way and the timer was used as the junction box.
I understand how the system works but tracking the wiring down can be a pig of a job and sometimes its quicker to just disconnect the lot and rewire to a 10 way (as there are so many different ways of doing it).

I think the main problem is most plumbing courses skip over the electric side (and electrical legislation) as a lot of the big company's have an electrician following around connecting after the install and for a plumber its becoming a dieing art?

 

[Yorkshire Jim]

I agree that some sparkys can wire up a heating system with confidence, but you do get those that forget everything and totally lose it as soon as they see SL! I too have used relays for wiring up larger systems, and once you've done a couple it's quite easy. It's all about understanding what the components do (i.e. Where they switch, etc.). With the modern boilers it's wise to have an idea about electrics so that components such as thermistors, for example can be tested. It's same with any trade, you get those that know and those that should stay at home.

 

[sparkygas]

Wow, what a funny thread. Firstly, rare to get a sparks who fully understands boiler/control wiring. There again rare to find a HA installer who doesn't have a superiority complex about everything and a heated desire to be home by 2 o'clock, and who would have a clue how to work out whether his wiring will cause over heating/over current RCD tripping etc. Horses for courses my son. Sorry you backed a loser today

 

[gaspastemania]

Wow, what a funny thread. Firstly, rare to get a sparks who fully understands boiler/control wiring. There again rare to find a HA installer who doesn't have a superiority complex about everything and a heated desire to be home by 2 o'clock, and who would have a clue how to work out whether his wiring will cause over heating/over current RCD tripping etc. Horses for courses my son. Sorry you backed a loser today

You forgot to mention home by 2 o clock with £300 banked "!!!

 

[cr0ft]

I have always wired my own heating stuff. I can do it with my eyes shut.
Recently i got pulled by a cust over a minor works cert so decided to sub the wiring out. I have since had 4 different sparks, all good electricians but all totally clueless on heating who all take forever and cost me a lot more than their cost in downtime telling then how to do it and waiting on them faffing around.
I am seriously considering becoming a course cowboy for electrics just to free myself from these idiots.

LOL @ Cowboy course. That's what I've just done recently although I wouldn't call it that, it was as hard as nails and a lot of people failed it. But, with a good brain and a lot of homework you will do fine on the course. Obviously you can already plumb in full central heating systems so I'm sure you have the good brain bit . I did the 5 week one which gives you your 2391-10 inspection and testing, 17th Edition Wiring Regs plus your domestic electrical installer certificate on completion (if you pass the final exam). I know it is a lot of time out of your business but it gives you a much better understanding of it all plus you can then register for full-scope work. Full cost to me was £1,200 after the VAT was claimed back.

I honestly feel that after doing the 5 week one that the domestic electrical installer course gives you too little information but that's just my opinion and another discussion entirely.

I'm quoting for my first re-wire at the moment and if I get it I will pretty much make back the cost of the course to be honest. Once you get your head round the calculations and theory then running wires from one fitting to the other is much easier than running pipes and better for the back/knees

My reason for doing the course was exactly the same as yours. I got fed up of paying for electricians to wire in heating controls when I understood far more about them than they did. On several occasions I even had to fault-find and correct faults with their wiring, despite them charging me for their services.

I really think that central heating wiring and switching are the hardest things to get your head round in domestic electrics and that if you can do them then you are well on your way.

 

[Captain.rick]

I have a job call out tomorrow where his electrics trip when he switches on heating/hot water. I had a quick look as i was passing and the situation is... Pump is new and the 3 port is working fine (visually) there was no tripping and it was all working fine? Next day, tripping again? Im a new combi man, not really into this sort of stuff but want to know more. This guy is sound and we get on, dont want to let him down or make myself look like a ****.
Can anyone offer any non abusive or rude advice on further checks etc?
Thanks

 

[plumben]

I have a job call out tomorrow where his electrics trip when he switches on heating/hot water. I had a quick look as i was passing and the situation is... Pump is new and the 3 port is working fine (visually) there was no tripping and it was all working fine? Next day, tripping again? Im a new combi man, not really into this sort of stuff but want to know more. This guy is sound and we get on, dont want to let him down or make myself look like a ****.
Can anyone offer any non abusive or rude advice on further checks etc?
Thanks

I'D surgest you post your own new thread on this matter as this post if from 2011 most people will see that and not even bother looking at your post

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I have a job call out tomorrow where his electrics trip when he switches on heating/hot water. I had a quick look as i was passing and the situation is... Pump is new and the 3 port is working fine (visually) there was no tripping and it was all working fine? Next day, tripping again? Im a new combi man, not really into this sort of stuff but want to know more. This guy is sound and we get on, dont want to let him down or make myself look like a ****.
Can anyone offer any non abusive or rude advice on further checks etc?
Thanks

what trips the mcb or the rcd if rcd then power is getting to the earth (around 30mv to trip)

 

[Captain.rick]

what trips the mcb or the rcd if rcd then power is getting to the earth (around 30mv to trip)

Trips rcd. Do you think it could be pcb? The fuses dont blow on spur

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Check the fan first, what boiler is it

 

[Captain.rick]

Check the fan first, what boiler is it

Ok mate will do, its a baxi solo old big thing probably rotten inside they normailly are.

Was it 50-100 ohms a good fan, can't remember now, usually when they go they stink and melt a bit (especially Worcester bosch combi)

 

[Jay The Plumber]

a lot of this thread rings true.. a lot of guys only know combi's and old gits like me have to sort the older systems out electrically and then the sparkies are confused by relays or 3 way valves

I have been trying to get to the bottom of exactly what extent or wiring is 'allowed' - even under the competent persons scheme when it comes to plumbers wiring in their own work.. anyone know?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

a lot of this thread rings true.. a lot of guys only know combi's and old gits like me have to sort the older systems out electrically and then the sparkies are confused by relays or 3 way valves

I have been trying to get to the bottom of exactly what extent or wiring is 'allowed' - even under the competent persons scheme when it comes to plumbers wiring in their own work.. anyone know?

you can only wire to a fused spur/ connection unit unless your part p / 17th ed then you can do what you like

but if in a bathroom you can't do anything unless your part p / 17th ed

 

[joni os]

Intermittent tripping of RCD difficult to find. In one case straightening out wiring cured the problem, ( It tripped daily, and now hasn't tripped for 10 months). If the obvious can't be found leave it to an electrician who can check the RCD. As well as tripping at 30ma there is lower a currant at which it should not trip.

 

[Captain.rick]

Intermittent tripping of RCD difficult to find. In one case straightening out wiring cured the problem, ( It tripped daily, and now hasn't tripped for 10 months). If the obvious can't be found leave it to an electrician who can check the RCD. As well as tripping at 30ma there is lower a currant at which it should not trip.

Thanks mate, thats what i think ill do. Cheers for the help and advice to all too

 

[DaveTidy]

Most older Plumbers I know are fine on wiring and diagnoses of fully wired Y and S plans.
Newer Combi installs are a piece of cake (L,N,E,SL).

I'm with Halesowen on all new installs I do now, its just easier and quicker to quote for a chronotherm wireless.

I must admit to being stumped a couple of times on very old systems that have no 10 way and the timer was used as the junction box.
I understand how the system works but tracking the wiring down can be a pig of a job and sometimes its quicker to just disconnect the lot and rewire to a 10 way (as there are so many different ways of doing it).

I think the main problem is most plumbing courses skip over the electric side (and electrical legislation) as a lot of the big company's have an electrician following around connecting after the install and for a plumber its becoming a dieing art?

These guys seem to be building a heating wiring diagrams and manuals website slowly (I see it's not finished until end of April) so it'll be interesting how many diagrams end up on there..

Look at the heating wiring diagrams on the top menu