Speedfit Energy Saver Plus Manifold Rad System

[antsals]

I've been hunting around for a solution where I can individually control heating around the house. I've looked at the Honeywell Evohome solution, danfoss system etc. but I just found this system by speedfit John Guest Speedfit - The World Leader in Push-fit Fittings, Pipe and Plastic Plumbing Systems - Energy Saver Plus
The idea seems to bring everything to a manifold and plumb out of that to each rad. I know it would be more pipework but give the ability of individual control. The control system seems to be heatmiser.
What do people think of this a idea?

Cheers
Ant

 

[Gray0689]

Great idea mate that's the way to go
I prefer the uponor manifolds and controls but I'd say there much the much to be honest

 

[antsals]

Which unit is the manifold part number? What actuators do you use? How do you deal with hot water tank? Do you plumb through the manifold or do you deal with that separate?

Cheers
Ant

 

[Gray0689]

Uponor will sell you all as a kit just ring them and they will sort it all out for you
I use the Actuators low voltage
And an i56 & i76
Cylinder is just done as normal on separate circuit

 

[antsals]

Sorry to be a pain just another quick question when you plumb the hot water feed into the manifold do you use a zone valve before the manifold or just rely on the actuator valves on the manifold?

Cheers
Ant

 

[Gray0689]

The hot water cylinder does not go on manifold separate circuit for coil

 

[antsals]

One last dim question what size pipe should you feed to the rads? The pipe at the moment looks like 10mm?

Cheers
Ant

 

[Gray0689]

No question is dim mate
I always use 15mm pipe in pipe

 

[antsals]

Do you think I will be ok to keep 10mm and connect upto 15mm it will save me destroying half my walls putting new piping in. I worked out I could connect upto alot of the 10mm pipework without taking all of my flooring up.

Cheers
ant

 

[DirksPlumbing]

If you care about efficiency or have fitted large radiators then the answer is a plain "no". If it is only about if the system will work somehow then the answer is yes.
If you have long pipe runs than that worries me even more. Have a look at the opening in the inserts of the 10mm SF pipe.

 

[antsals]

So what your saying is as I decorate each room rip out the 10mm and replace with 15mm pipework? To be honest some rads are coming out and replace with underfloor heating, but the ones that are staying I should get to the point that they are plumbed with 15mm. At the moment they are 10mm copper!

Thanks for the great advice,
Ant

 

[DirksPlumbing]

10mm Copper is a whole lot better than 10mm SF pipe. Not great. But mentioning the SF manifold I assumed the use of 10mm SF pipe too.
You have some project there. You wat to run the radiators and the UFH of the same manifold? Can you get a bit more into detail with that?

 

[DirksPlumbing]

For example a radiator set up to 45/35 which would be quite high for UFH would need to be 3x the size of a radiator set up for the usual delta 50.

 

[radswilldo]

Ant think carefully about the effect on your system when fitting these controls baring in mind that you have said you have a D rated boiler, you will find that you have created unnecessary problems whilst not achieving the savings you imagine; on this case you are putting the horse before the cart. I spent last Wednesday on the phone to Vaillant, Gloworm, Honeywell and Danfoss; a mixture of highs and lows. As a result, I am expecting a bout of needless and unenforcable standards and regulations is on the way.

 

[antsals]

Just another quick question I assume I still have a motorised zone valve between the central heating pump and the radiator manifold? The plan is to setup another zone valve with the ufh attached too. I don't plan to mix the two systems. This is how I envisage one circuit zone valve to hot water system, one zone to rad manifold and one zone to ufh manifold?
That sound ok?
At the moment it's all copper hoping to get a more efficient system changing to these individual rad control.

Cheers
Ant

 

[DirksPlumbing]

At the moment it's all copper hoping to get a more efficient system changing to these individual rad control.

Copper is not a bad thing but I do not think you are gonna be increasing your efficiency dramatic.
The UFH can only play its advances if linked straight into the boiler. As soon as you mix the water you add a pump and towards the boiler it looks like a conventional high temperature circuit.
And a D rated boiler will not be able to gain much out of it in any way.
But then again it is a start. If developed in the right direction it has potential.
Clever zoning might be the cheaper option here.

 

[antsals]

Nothing ever simple......I did plan to change the boiler in the near future to an A rated unit, but I thought I would just wait until my boiler was knackered!
Now I'm not sure what too do! Are you saying if I zone valve my ufh and zone valves rads that it isn't a good idea?

Cheers
ant

 

[DirksPlumbing]

If you have settled about the UFH then I would add a circuit for the bathroom rads/TRs, one for the rest of the rads, one for the HWCyl and one for the UFH.
Bear in mind that each actuator uses 2W on demand. If you have enough of them they might easily consume more power than your new A rated pump.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Some mixers do not require a zone valve for the UFH.

 

[stevetheplumber]

nothing wrong with ten mm pipe most new builds are in ten mm and i do a lot of stuff in ten mm works great fast heat up due to low water content its the perfect system yes there are limits on the length of runs but in the average domestic property this isnt a problem and larger areas you use more than one manifold
no joins in the floors makes this the most leak free system
as to the comment about the diameter of a insert have you looked at the size of the water way through a trv?

 

[antsals]

Is it possiable to get 10mm manifolds?
As normal everyone has so much useful information I now don't have a clue what too do with my system, not sure if I'm just over killing it hunting for ultimate efficiency??
cheers
Ant

 

[DirksPlumbing]

nothing wrong with ten mm pipe most new builds are in ten mm and i do a lot of stuff in ten mm works great fast heat up due to low water content its the perfect system yes there are limits on the length of runs but in the average domestic property this isnt a problem and larger areas you use more than one manifold
no joins in the floors makes this the most leak free system
as to the comment about the diameter of a insert have you looked at the size of the water way through a trv?

You gave it away by mentioning quick heat that you are setting a high F/R temperature which contradicts the attempt to get as much as possible out a condensing boiler. How much condensation do you expect at 75 degC+?

That is exactly what I said, working somehow. Efficient is different.
But you are right, that is exactly what a lot of customers want.
Actually Stelrad makes the impossible possible with their new valve rads. You can have a comparably high heat radiation combined with low losses. But it still does not beat physics within the boiler.

As for no joints I get that with the MLCP pipe as well and beat mice at the same time as they tend not to eat through the aluminium.

But for the Op I would advice to have a scribble down what his plans are short and medium term and run that by a professional.
This project is to big for a bit of speculation.

 

[Gray0689]

You can have the best heating system in the world but if your house is not super insulated it's a load of rubbish

 

[Gray0689]

You gave it away by mentioning quick heat that you are setting a high F/R temperature which contradicts the attempt to get as much as possible out a condensing boiler. How much condensation do you expect at 75 degC+?

That is exactly what I said, working somehow. Efficient is different.
But you are right, that is exactly what a lot of customers want.
Actually Stelrad makes the impossible possible with their new valve rads. You can have a comparably high heat radiation combined with low losses. But it still does not beat physics within the boiler.

As for no joints I get that with the MLCP pipe as well and beat mice at the same time as they tend not to eat through the aluminium.

But for the Op I would advice to have a scribble down what his plans are short and medium term and run that by a professional.
This project is to big for a bit of speculation.

I agree think you should get someone in who is used to doing these kind of jobs it's not really a DIY kind of project your trying to do

 

[DirksPlumbing]

You can have the best heating system in the world but if your house is not super insulated it's a load of rubbish

Must say I found a lot of UFH doing exactly what they are named for: heating under the floor. Great example was one with 25mm Kingspan, no damp proof course and 45mm of wooden flooring (chip board+ underlay + hardwood).
So the soaking wet Kingspan was expected to insulate times better than the wooden decking . Well actually the customer did not find that funny as the house was stone cold but the mice run about with speedos in the coldest winter days.

 

[antsals]

What do you all think then.....sack off trying to individually zone the rooms in the house and just install new heating controls?

I do think I'd be missing out but if the general concensous, is that I'm just trying to something that will have no really advantage then there is no point!

Cheers,
Ant

 

[Gray0689]

I'd go for it if the house is well insulated you will save money in long run having more control

 

[antsals]

All the cavity is insulated and 300mm in the loft! An odd draft at the front door but hopefully sort that soon!

Did a few temperature checks from the hearing going off at 8am till come back on at 4pm set at 20 degrees and outside temperature lower I normally only loose a degree at most.

I'll do a little diagram of system I want to install and post later, then everyone can rip it to shreds!

Cheers,
Ant

 

[antsals]

Here's my "sketch" of what I was thinking. Each one of the underfloor heating zones and rad zones to be individually controlled via a room stat.

Any comments,
Cheers
Ant

 

[DirksPlumbing]

That is the easy part done. Heat loss calculation should be next. Consideration of the setup of the UFH as well. Which parts are meant to be reused and what is to be renewed in the first attack? What do you plan in medium term and how would that affect and be affected by decisions you do now. There is hundreds of questions to be answered but start with the heat loss. Common fault is firing UFH in without considering its limitations. And there is dozens of different types with totally different behaviours as well. Screeded? Dry screed? Wood decking? Pipe ID, pipe distance, waved layout, coiled layout, zoned layout? Where do you expect the most heat loss/intake in those rooms so that you can place the flow and select a suitable layout.
What wall thickness do you have or better what kind of thermal capacity does the building structure have? Are you gonna better off with a quicker system or with one with low reaction times?...
Pretty sure I could fill an A4 sheet with questions about the location.

Well maybe I was wrong a bit. The budget should be first consideration. And maybe a quick calculation of Return Of Investment excluding the parts requested by the wife as you will pay for them in any way

I can only repeat again that this project is beyond DIY. There are so many thing you can do wrong easily adding hundreds of pounds to your existing energy bill.
Another case I had where I warned the customer not to safe on the insulation for the UFH. I had been overridden as being paranoid. If he wants now to use his UFH he has to stretch out additional £800/an for heating a single tiny bathroom. But I am pretty sure the earth worms will be snugged under during the winter. And thank him that all summer long.

 

[Gray0689]

Looks good but as said you need t sized correctly and correct insulation and amount and also the screed thinner liquid screeds are better for quicker response times with ufh
Who ever manafacturers you get will be able to size it correctly for you from plans

 

[antsals]

Thanks again for the replies, dirkplumbing I think you missed the reason for me posting on the forum. I'm an mechanical engineer by trade and as an engineer I'm always hunting for the ultimate solution. How the solution and when it is implemented maybe in stages and over the next few years, I have a plumber coming but I want to explain what solution I'm eventually aiming for. I've found over the years there are loads of great plumbers but sometimes they are not greatly knowledgable about new technology / techniques. That was my reasoning for posting on th forum. The information on here is priceless and some great debate / discussion.
Its intresting to look at what technology is out there, here's my question if you had a blank canvas to install a heating system what would you install, that's why I want to get as close too as possiable.....within reason!
I'm not sure now if the best thing is just to install a new programmer and thermostat in one zone? But everything I know says that isn't going to be the right thing to do?

Cheers,
Ant

 

[antsals]

I think I might be running before I can walk here!
Maybe the best option to would be replace my hot water controller to a single channel 7 day programmer, then get a wireless room thermostat for heating control.
I think maybe getting these wireless rad thermstats maybe a better option, Danfoss Link CC is a good option but not yet out in the UK. I could go Honeywell Evotouch but it will only do 8 zones per each Evohome unit.

I think as normal I've been getting too excited with the ultimate option.

Cheers
Ant

 

[Gray0689]

This is the sort of thing your looking at mate

 

[Gray0689]

Almost finished lol