Oil Tank Below Boiler Level problem

[thediscobison]

Hi,

Recently on the advice of a plumber we moved our oil tank level from above the level of the tank, to further down our garden. We were told that it would be fine as he would use a tiger loop which would draw the oil up to the boiler no problem.

The bottom of the oil tank is around 2.5/3 metres below the level of the boiler, and a distance of approx 25m away. This is well within the specifications of the tiger loop (up to 13ft in height and at least 25m in length)

Now after much problems getting and keeping the boiler going, he is suggesting that we need to move the tank up by approx 2 or 3 feet as "our burner pump is not strong enough to draw the oil up that height." The boiler was cutting off as it was being "starved of oil"

It has been suggested to me by another plumber that we should consider a two pipe system, as he would not have considered using a tiger loop for the size of drop we have. Surely a two pipe system would still require the burner pump to be strong enough to draw the oil up the same height?

Are there any solutions which anyone would recommend to fix this? I don't want to move the oil tank (and I hope I won't need to)

 

[tamz]

A tiger loop will draw the oil no problem on 10mm with this rise and run and regardless of any small leaks that may be on the line.
The problem is either with the flow and return from the loop to the burner (kinked hoses), the pump or the bypass screw or with the filter(s).

 

[thediscobison]

Should have used flared fittings not compression - less likely to get leaks.

Have a look at the tigerloop when the boiler is running. Are there any air bubbles getting into it?

Primed by mouth!! You kidding me. Is this guy for real?

Trust me the guy is more than trying my patience.

When the boiler is running I can see small air bubbles in the tiger loop. Last night, he tightened the fitting I had my doubts on at the tank, and again got the boiler going (priming pipe again.) When the boiler was running there was quite obviously a lot of air bubbles in the tiger loop, these eventually appeared to calm down after maybe 30 mins. The boiler ran absolutely no problem until 10pm last night (when I turned it off)

This morning, the boiler fired briefly (15 secs) before cutting off. Again there was quite an obvious flow of air bubbles during the time that the boiler was fired.

This can only be air getting into the pipe right? Dodgy connection somewhere? might a compression fitting let in air without letting oil out (at last check last night all the fittings on the pipe were dry to touch)?

 

[thediscobison]

Get rid of the non return valve.

What makes you say this? Might the non return valve be causing an issue?

 

[thediscobison]

A tiger loop will draw the oil no problem on 10mm with this rise and run and regardless of any small leaks that may be on the line.
The problem is either with the flow and return from the loop to the burner (kinked hoses), the pump or the bypass screw or with the filter(s).

Interesting.

I've drawn a rather crude diagram and taken a photo of it (since i'm in work) When I read the tiger loop installation instructions I got from the internet, I noticed they show a curved inlet pipe to the tiger loop. Might the right angle fitting cause an issue? (marked as 90 degree corner fitting.)

Note the oil inlet pipe is copper, the two pipes to the burner are the flexible type. Hope the diagram is clear (can upload an actual photo later) The flexible pipes are not kinked.

What might be wrong with the filters (currently to my knowledge there isn't one on the oil pipe between tank and tiger loop)? Should there be? And would it help?

Could the pump be on it's way out / not capable of drawing the oil? Bear in mind the pump came with the burner which I replaced maybe 3 years ago.

What's the bypass screw? Inside the burner? What could be the problem with it?

 

[Gray0689]

No need for a non return valve won't be helping draw
Take it off and try again if still not working right I'd have to say pump not working to well

 

[ecowarm]

For suction lift of 3m and a run of 25m it needs a 6mm internal bore pipe i.e. 8mm copper pipe.

 

[Gray0689]

For suction lift of 3m and a run of 25m it needs a 6mm internal bore pipe i.e. 8mm copper pipe.

Seen it done before 3metre high and 50metre long with 10mm no problem at all

 

[thediscobison]

For suction lift of 3m and a run of 25m it needs a 6mm internal bore pipe i.e. 8mm copper pipe.

The lift is somewhere between 2.5m and 3m at a second look, and the run could be 22m. How can you be sure that 8mm would do the job? A lot of others are saying 10mm is fine.

Correct me if i'm wrong but when the burner/pump is on and running well, the oil in the pipe would be right at the level of the tiger loop right? So why when the heat goes off overnight why would the oil run partially back down the pipe - surely pressure should keep it at the top? Or does the pump expect to find air first?

 

[thediscobison]

No need for a non return valve won't be helping draw
Take it off and try again if still not working right I'd have to say pump not working to well

Thanks Gray - that gives me something else to suggest to him. He's clearly running out of ideas here - rechecked the connections to the tiger loop / burner tonight. One suggestion to try replacing the flexible pipes (though they were new.)

The non return valve is much further down the pipe - it is maybe 2m from the oil tank. Would this still be affecting the draw?

 

[ecowarm]

If everything is right, the oil stays at the burner ready to fire next time, in an hour or 2 weeks. If the oil is running back there is air getting in. Somewhere on the flexi pipe connectors between the tigerloop and burner on either pipe there is a leak. Stop the leak and it will work providing the oil is manually drawn to the burner. If the smaller pipe is installed the burner pump will be able to drraw the oil on its own. As said remove non return valve.

 

[thediscobison]

See the acual photo above, I'm hoping someone can see if there might be anything obvious wrong (unlikely I guess)

 

[thediscobison]

If everything is right, the oil stays at the burner ready to fire next time, in an hour or 2 weeks. If the oil is running back there is air getting in. Somewhere on the flexi pipe connectors between the tigerloop and burner on either pipe there is a leak. Stop the leak and it will work providing the oil is manually drawn to the burner. If the smaller pipe is installed the burner pump will be able to drraw the oil on its own. As said remove non return valve.

Surely removing the leak on the flexi pipe connectors will stop the air getting in so stop the oil running down therefore there would be no need to manually draw the oil to the pump?

 

[ecowarm]

!/. tigerloop on the inside
2/. what a mess
3/. no need to take the tigerloop as high as that

 

[ecowarm]

Surely removing the leak on the flexi pipe connectors will stop the air getting in so stop the oil running down therefore there would be no need to manually draw the oil to the pump?

Yes but the oil pump will have to work a lot harder than its designed to do

 

[dontknowitall]

Shouldn't really add to his woes (unless he's not OFTEC registered) but I can't see a fire valve fitted either.

Don't think it's within regulations to fit a tiger loop inside a boiler, let alone inside the house (ones I've seen are outside the building), but I don't know the regulations of this without looking them up.

Surely the tiger loop came with instructions? All you have to do is follow them.

Hope you get the issue sorted before too long.

 

[thediscobison]

Shouldn't really add to his woes (unless he's not OFTEC registered) but I can't see a fire valve fitted either.

Don't think it's within regulations to fit a tiger loop inside a boiler, let alone inside the house (ones I've seen are outside the building), but I don't know the regulations of this without looking them up.

Surely the tiger loop came with instructions? All you have to do is follow them.

Hope you get the issue sorted before too long.

It's not really indoors - it's in an outside boilerhouse. As far as I am aware when I read the instructions after he put it in it is fine to put inside. He is aware of the fire valve (would this also be known as a fusible valve?) but he wants to get it working before introducing anything else.

 

[thediscobison]

I've attached a photo of the Tiger loop when I turned the boiler on this morning. Again it fired for maybe 15s before cutting out. Notice the flow of air bubbles - I think this is not normal? Does this prove the air might be getting in through one of the flexible hoses?

Plan is to change those out tonight - but I'm wondering if there is anything else that could be wrong that might cause this (unless this is expected)

 

[kimbo]

Just got back from holiday and seen thread. If I were you I would get an OFTEC bloke out and get the job done properly. The tigerloop should not be in any building the reason is it vents the fumes from the top of the tigerloop, so you could get the boilerhouse filled with fumes and could cause an explosion (unlikely but possible). Theer is a similar thing called a GOK which is designed to fit into a building and a bit more sophisticated. If you dont know who to believe on what you require or whether your setup will work ring anglo nordic who are the agents for tigerloop and also the GOK device.
[DLMURL="http://www.anglonordic.co.uk/catalog/index.php"]Gas and Oil Boiler Components, Parts and Spares[/DLMURL]

 

[dontknowitall]

... He is aware of the fire valve (would this also be known as a fusible valve?) but he wants to get it working before introducing anything else ...

I would never do that for the simple reason that if something did go wrong and a fire started, I doubt my insurance company would be happy to pay out due to my negligence - quite apart from the risk of injury or fatality. If something did occur I could never be at peace with myself.

While I appreciate the risk is small, it does have serious consequencies. Similar to not wearing a seatbelt where you're unlikely to have an accident but if you do ...

If he is OFTEC qualified he's not very responsible and if he isn't this is a primary reason why you're having problems.

 

[Gray0689]

The tiger loop is fine inside boiler house but the fire valve should be outside non

 

[kimbo]

The tiger loop is fine inside boiler house

I have to disagree Gray0689 I asked the very same question years ago at OFTEC and I was told it should be fitted externally for the reason I mentioned.

 

[Gray0689]

I have to disagree Gray0689 I asked the very same question years ago at OFTEC and I was told it should be fitted externally for the reason I mentioned.

The fire valve (kbb) should be fitted outside of boiler house for the reason you mentioned not the tiger loop

 

[kimbo]

The fire valve should be outside as you correctly said but the reason I said the tigerloop should be outside is because it vents fumes from the air vent in the top of it and you could get the boiler house filled with kerosene fumes which can ignite in the right circumstances. The oftec book 3 says must be fitted outside of a building, it does not say what constitutes a building so we have to assume that a boilerhouse is a building.

 

[SimonG]

Aye, fire valve and that type of tiger loop external, if you want it inside then its a gok. For me anyway.

 

[Gray0689]

A boiler house is not a building we will agree to disagree to this lol

 

[WHPES]

Tigerloop must be fitted EXTERNALLY IE OUTSIDE as it can vent vapour, which must not be sucked up by the boiler. Only the Tigerloop BIO can be installed inside and it has a vent pipe going outside. Tigerloop original instructions state it must be fitted externally.

Gray0689 - Look at your OFTEC installation manual - it always shows the deaeration device outside. If you still don't believe us all then phone OFTEC technical advice and ask them!

What a complete mess! NO remote sensing fire valve fitted either!!

COWBOY ALERT!
COWBOY ALERT!
COWBOY ALERT!

Guy is DEFNINTELY not registered, or else completely incompetent. If it hasn't been installed properly it could also be dangerous.

Go to Oil Firing Technical Association - registered professionals for the the oil heating and cooking industry - OFTEC, Kesgrave, Ipswich and find a technician in your area to do the job properly.

 

[Gray0689]

Tigerloop must be fitted EXTERNALLY IE OUTSIDE as it can vent vapour, which must not be sucked up by the boiler

What a complete mess!

COWBOY ALERT!
COWBOY ALERT!
COWBOY ALERT!

Guy is DEFNINTELY not registered, and look incompetent. If it hasn't been installed properly it could also be dangerous.

Go to Oil Firing Technical Association - registered professionals for the the oil heating and cooking industry - OFTEC, Kesgrave, Ipswich and find a technician in your area to do the job properly.

I disagree it can be in boilerhouse as long as kbb on outside as per regs

 

[WHPES]

Wrong - quote from the Tigerloop instructions:

Tigerloop Original - for external mounting only. This device is not permitted for indoor installation as it vents contaminated air into its surrounding environment, this could create explosion or health hazards in confined spaces and therefore must be fitted on the outside wall of any premises. For situation where the boiler is not mounted to the perimeter wall, use a Tigerloop Bio

 

[Gray0689]

Wrong - quote from the Tigerloop instructions:

Is a boiler house oil boiler classed as a building I will think you will find it's not or you would require planning permission for it you do it your way and I'll do it mine lol

 

[WHPES]

A building is defined as any permanent or temporary structure which may be fully or partly enclosed, so yes a boilerhouse is a building. Nothing to do with building regulations or building control or whether you need planning permission or not.

Also you cannot argue that fitting the tigerloop inside a boiler house can be "external"

Still disagree? OK lets phone OFTEC and ask them for the definitive answer then to end the argument!