Discuss New CH system underpowered/ wrong layout? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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Many many thanks to all those helpful posts - and good to see people enjoy what they do too. In response to request for sizes, here are room sizes.


Room size examples:

Lounge - 3.45m x 4.25m x 2.5m high, two external walls of 18inch stone & rubble, 3.2m of double glazed and draughtproofed sash, timber floor with space beneath. In here he has placed a Stelrad K2 compact (450 x 1200mm) which gives about 5615 BTU

Dining - 3.45m x 4.2m x 2.5m high, one external wall, one single glazed window into the conservatory (so not really a window). In here a compact stelrad K2, slightly smaller, 450mm x 1100mm, giving about 5100 BTU

Kitchen - I wanted to get a rad and the installer didn't calculate what I'd need. I got a vertical semi designer thing from B&Q (i know, i know, but it was a weak moment) giving 2800 BTU. Looks alright but gurgles if turn TVR up beyond 3. Kitchen is 2.7m wide x 5m long x 2.2m high, one small double glazed window, one external wall (short side) and one wall has a door and window into the conservatory (antarctica).

Conservatory - a few installers who quoted suggested not trying to fully heat the conservatory but I though to put something in at least to take the edge off the cold. I suggested something under the interior window, so he put Stelrad K2, 300mm x 1500mm giving 5026 BTU. It's 2m x 5m long, and over 3m on high side. Also, that rad is teed off the dining room rad flow & return, not from the main flow/return circuit.

Hall & upstairs landings - incl stairs it's about 15 to 16 m long (horizontally) x 0.9m wide x 2.5 m ceiling. No outside walls (just party walls) or windows. There is one K1 downstairs (600mm x 11000mm = 3678 BTU) and one upstairs (600mm x 900mm giving 3009 BTU)

Master bed - 4.35m wide x 4.2m long x 2.4m high - he put in a K2 600 x 1000mm long, giving 5910. There are two external walls, like lounge, and three single glazed sashes but all secondary glazed so no draughts. There is about 75mm of loft insulation.

2nd bed - 2.55m x 4.2m x 2.4m high. Rad is K2, 450mm x 1100mm = 5100BTU. Two outside walls, one double glazed window, roof space insulated with 75mm insulation.

Bathroom - installer was arguing that I asked for a towel rail which he pointed out isn't as powerful as a panel radiator. I pointed out I never told him how big to make the towel rail! He installed one 500mm x 1200mm giving only about 1400 BTU. Bathroom is about 2.7m x 2.3m x 2.2m high, two external walls, one double glazed window.

Study - small room about 2.2m x 1.7m x 2.2m high. No radiator, just the boiler. One small dg window, one external wall.

That's it, so about 37600 BTU of radiators in house. Sounds like I need ask if he limited the boiler heat output yes?

Alex,

i have not worked them out, but they all seem undersized to me at a glance someone will work them out!

looks like he bought a 40,000 btu heat pack don't hang him for this as i am guessing

B&Q rad noises as baffle will be missing to stop cross flow of flow and return check with them not big enough anyhow

why no rad in study? CDi's give off little heat, @£ 7k you should have
 
Simple ask him to provide the design & heatloss calculations he used to size & then select the rads, as you believe they are undersized & this is the cause of the system (product) you have paid a lot of money for not working correctly, give him a few days to provide these & the chance to correct the problem otherwise you will have to go see trading standards & the court. You may need to get another engineer in to prepare a report on the installation to back up your claim. (see CIPHE)

As others have said it could also be the boiler heating output is to large for the load but most likely it is the rad's.

Chris

Should he have a design and written calculations then? He said to me he used an online BTU calculator that he found very reliable and I did think blimey, I could do that myself (which I have many times, and his rads are either too small or marginal at best, depending on the website).

It is sounding like I need to find a respected heating surveyor and get this checked before he starts putting bigger rads in and charging me. He has said 4-6 weeks to put bigger rads in - I refused to just pay and said I'd ay the difference in cost of the rad for the lounge, dining and bathroom rads to be upgraded (not labour or other materials). Maybe others will find that the whole system is under powered and that will get interesting - I'd def need an independent report then.

Many thanks
Alex
 
Its not about how powerful the boiler is
Its about how much can you prevent the HEAT LOST
If no one is using ch all day and you expect it to worm up the house in 15min this will never happen

Rads do seem a bit small , but then was there enough available space to install bigger rads ?

For any one to give right advice seen the job is best option to help out

Piping the system sounds ok to me tbh
 
Its not about how powerful the boiler is
Its about how much can you prevent the HEAT LOST
If no one is using ch all day and you expect it to worm up the house in 15min this will never happen

Rads do seem a bit small , but then was there enough available space to install bigger rads ?

For any one to give right advice seen the job is best option to help out

Piping the system sounds ok to me tbh

Thanks for input. Yeah, plenty of space for bigger rads. It's not that I want house to heat up in 15 mins, but an hour would be nice. For example in cold spell the dining room was only up to 19.5 degrees after 3 hours of coming on (would have been about 15-16 when it came on), the lounge a degree colder, and rest of house similar.
Alex
 
I did a rough calculation on the lounge as per the info you gave and got about 2.2kw which I think is approx 7500btu's, so that one looks undersized.
 
Chris

Should he have a design and written calculations then? He said to me he used an online BTU calculator that he found very reliable and I did think blimey, I could do that myself (which I have many times, and his rads are either too small or marginal at best, depending on the website).

It is sounding like I need to find a respected heating surveyor and get this checked before he starts putting bigger rads in and charging me. He has said 4-6 weeks to put bigger rads in - I refused to just pay and said I'd ay the difference in cost of the rad for the lounge, dining and bathroom rads to be upgraded (not labour or other materials). Maybe others will find that the whole system is under powered and that will get interesting - I'd def need an independent report then.

Many thanks
Alex
You have to be fair to this guy & give him both the chance to show how he has size / designed the system to do the job you have paid for & if any mistakes have been made to correct these. Not withstanding that, the product he has provided you does not appear to be fit for purpose, he is obliged to provide information to show how he selected the components to do an acceptable job, what ever form this took (there are too many variables to start second guessing) with that info you can then see wether it is both works / is designed within the normally acceptable standards.
He can not make a charge of any kind (for the rads) for correcting his mistakes unless you had some kind of input into selecting these.
You need to write to him setting this out & tell him that 4-6 weeks is no good.
 
as previously said,
all seems well apart from the heat pack so undersized rads dont hang the guy simply ask the chap to recalculate and replace
 
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Are all your "external walls of 18inch stone & rubble," the same ? is there any internal insulation on the walls?
Just wondering how many tons of stone need to be heated to warm the building.
 
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