How many people are thinking of doing renewables this year

[unguided1]

As the title says what are your thoughts this question is for every one or are you already doing them

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I'll be the one defiantly doing heat pump+ground source heat pump +solar+underfloor heating ! just need some work experience before I do the actual training Mike ! +need to get oil and LPG ! is a shame all this hard study I did on natural gas

 

[GQuigley67]

I am interested in solar thermal, the cost of things is too much for me though so i cant see me doing it anytime soon and I still think there won't be much of a market up here at the moment due to the cost

 

[fuzzy]

my advicew would be to do the propoer renewables course from C&G's the 2399 as opposed to the manufacurers and other short courses

 

[MickW]

I am interested in solar thermal, the cost of things is too much for me though so i cant see me doing it anytime soon and I still think there won't be much of a market up here at the moment due to the cost

It was recently announced that the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) will be rolled out in Scotland as well as England, so I guess demand will increase when that happens.

 

[Davinder]

It was recently announced that the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) will be rolled out in Scotland as well as England, so I guess demand will increase when that happens.

Do we have any idea of when that will happen?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

my advicew would be to do the propoer renewables course from C&G's the 2399 as opposed to the manufacurers and other short courses

do you think this is better then the manufacture ?...as if I do manufacture one I can then not have match problem installing there products as when on training well get hands on it ! speaking of worcester .

 

[MickW]

It was recently announced that the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) will be rolled out in Scotland as well as England, so I guess demand will increase when that happens.

Do we have any idea of when that will happen?

Truthfully, no!

The last time I spoke to DECC they said that the RHPP, which is the grant part of it would be announced during the week of June 6th, but that didn't happen. Now they are saying "as soon as possible", but my guess is that it will be in the next week or so.

I'm told that the RHPP grant for solar thermal will be £300, if the kit & installer are MCS accredited, and that the installation will be eligible for the RHI starting in October next year. The actual figure for the incentive hasn't been announced yet either.

Although the fact that the government are dragging their feet on this is actually damaging the renewables industry, I have to say that I'm not sorry as it gives me a little more time to get the whole industry behind my campaign to have small business exempt from the OTT paperwork side (QMS) of MCS.
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

We are getting there! Pretty well all the major boiler manufacturers are 100% behind it as well as the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (CIPHE) and plenty of influential bods from industry. I meeting with the main men from the MCS steering group next Tuesday, so fingers crossed!

 

[GQuigley67]

only £300 ???? wasnt that long ago the government gave you £400 towards a new boiler.

 

[That Extra Mile]

Truthfully, no!

The last time I spoke to DECC they said that the RHPP, which is the grant part of it would be announced during the week of June 6th, but that didn't happen. Now they are saying "as soon as possible", but my guess is that it will be in the next week or so.

I'm told that the RHPP grant for solar thermal will be £300, if the kit & installer are MCS accredited, and that the installation will be eligible for the RHI starting in October next year. The actual figure for the incentive hasn't been announced yet either.

Although the fact that the government are dragging their feet on this is actually damaging the renewables industry, I have to say that I'm not sorry as it gives me a little more time to get the whole industry behind my campaign to have small business exempt from the OTT paperwork side (QMS) of MCS.
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

We are getting there! Pretty well all the major boiler manufacturers are 100% behind it as well as the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (CIPHE) and plenty of influential bods from industry. I meeting with the main men from the MCS steering group next Tuesday, so fingers crossed!

The MCS must be simplified to allow easier access for smaller firms. The Renewables market won't thrive unless both large and small companies are able to compete effectively. Thanks to all of those who are working to make this happen.

 

[MickW]

only £300 ???? wasnt that long ago the government gave you £400 towards a new boiler.

That's true, but don't forget that this time they get the £300 and possibly a similar amount every year for the next 20 years.

That will create a demand and is exactly why I am working so hard to remove this barrier for small business.

Did you know it was me that started the petition and campaign for the boiler scrappage scheme?

I've got to shoot out now, but I'll come back later and tell you about the figures for installations and who fitted what in boiler scrappage boilers.

 

[Kimou]

It's a no-brainer. Of course I'm going to get into it. You'd be nuts not to.
It's a bit like asking Pamela Anderson if she'd do x-rated once her career's going downhill...oh wait, she did! :dizzy2:

Once the Consumer Market sees the difference between the working practises of plumbers compared to the jump-on-the-band-wagon merchants then our neatness and practicality will win hands down. Look how many times you see the work of builders that throw in bathrooms themselves. That's never going to change. No pride, you see.

 

[That Extra Mile]

That's true, but don't forget that this time they get the £300 and possibly a similar amount every year for the next 20 years.

That will create a demand and is exactly why I am working so hard to remove this barrier for small business.

Did you know it was me that started the petition and campaign for the boiler scrappage scheme?

I've got to shoot out now, but I'll come back later and tell you about the figures for installations and who fitted what in boiler scrappage boilers.

Realize we're off on a tangent here but the campaign to reduce VAT on boilers to 5% is important too. We're London based - most Victorian/Georgian houses/flats are small and poorly insulated with very little space outside. Heat pumps and biomass aren't suitable, solar thermal might work but only if space is available inside and you own the roof! The Government needs to understand that in these cases renewables aren't an option. The answer? Incentivise people to upgrade to the next best thing - modern 'A' rated boilers with up to date controls.

 

[Guest123]

I am interested in solar thermal, the cost of things is too much for me though so i cant see me doing it anytime soon and I still think there won't be much of a market up here at the moment due to the cost

Mmmm, solar in Scotland? Can you point me in the nearest direction of the sunshine mate? LOL

 

[unguided1]

Realize we're off on a tangent here but the campaign to reduce VAT on boilers to 5% is important too. We're London based - most Victorian/Georgian houses/flats are small and poorly insulated with very little space outside. Heat pumps and biomass aren't suitable, solar thermal might work but only if space is available inside and you own the roof! The Government needs to understand that in these cases renewables aren't an option. The answer? Incentivise people to upgrade to the next best thing - modern 'A' rated boilers with up to date controls.

I completely agree with this post and here in lies the problem, we as heating engineers know this, or should do whereas the big companies using sales reps and semi trained installers do not, we also have the same problem out in the country side with old buildings, therefore it is in my opinion that our industry is no longer splintered and that more focus be made of fit for purpose installs and the whole industry needs to be encompassed under one body instead of being fractured with specialists trying to convince the customers that an inapropriate system is the only and best option

 

[MickW]

Realize we're off on a tangent here but the campaign to reduce VAT on boilers to 5% is important too. We're London based - most Victorian/Georgian houses/flats are small and poorly insulated with very little space outside. Heat pumps and biomass aren't suitable, solar thermal might work but only if space is available inside and you own the roof! The Government needs to understand that in these cases renewables aren't an option. The answer? Incentivise people to upgrade to the next best thing - modern 'A' rated boilers with up to date controls.

I completely agree with this post and here in lies the problem, we as heating engineers know this, or should do whereas the big companies using sales reps and semi trained installers do not, we also have the same problem out in the country side with old buildings, therefore it is in my opinion that our industry is no longer splintered and that more focus be made of fit for purpose installs and the whole industry needs to be encompassed under one body instead of being fractured with specialists trying to convince the customers that an inapropriate system is the only and best option

Yes, it is off topic, but you're absolutely right and last year's Boiler Scrappage scheme prove that the householder is up for reducing their fuel consumption and, at the same time, reducing their CO2 emissions.

A campaign for another day, perhaps, I've got enough on my plate pushing this one!!!

 

[GQuigley67]

That's true, but don't forget that this time they get the £300 and possibly a similar amount every year for the next 20 years.

That will create a demand and is exactly why I am working so hard to remove this barrier for small business.

Did you know it was me that started the petition and campaign for the boiler scrappage scheme?

I've got to shoot out now, but I'll come back later and tell you about the figures for installations and who fitted what in boiler scrappage boilers.

yeah I seen earlier on this forum that you started that campaign, good job on that one ! lets hope this campaign is also succsessful

 

[tackleburger]

Truthfully, no!

The last time I spoke to DECC they said that the RHPP, which is the grant part of it would be announced during the week of June 6th, but that didn't happen. Now they are saying "as soon as possible", but my guess is that it will be in the next week or so.

I'm told that the RHPP grant for solar thermal will be £300, if the kit & installer are MCS accredited, and that the installation will be eligible for the RHI starting in October next year. The actual figure for the incentive hasn't been announced yet either.

Although the fact that the government are dragging their feet on this is actually damaging the renewables industry, I have to say that I'm not sorry as it gives me a little more time to get the whole industry behind my campaign to have small business exempt from the OTT paperwork side (QMS) of MCS.
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

We are getting there! Pretty well all the major boiler manufacturers are 100% behind it as well as the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (CIPHE) and plenty of influential bods from industry. I meeting with the main men from the MCS steering group next Tuesday, so fingers crossed!

Mike very good post and excellent link and I thank you for the constructive campaign, which clearly has little counter argument. I have witnessed MCS companies work several times as most of them don't return as they trade far and wide. On one occasion we found an air source heat pump in an attic! They came back, removed it because the owner found it too noisy and fitted a solar thermal system to house with two people in it and a 200 litre cylinder. Worse still as the attached photo shows the boiler flow goes via the cylinder on its way to the pump. So whenever the heating is on the lady's water was scolding hot. So in terms of consumer confidence what would we rather have loads of jobs like this with lots of rubber stamped paper in a file? Or a quality job with a local , often family business who are properly trained and actually care about their reputation, the latter is important and it is the essence of the decision on QMS really.

 

[gaspastemania]

If i dont end up going on the books then will be looking at solar possibly later in year .

 

[CES]

Did you know the Boiler scrappage scheme has reopened up in Scotland again? Its being kept very quiet as far as the public know.
Ive done a bit of training on Heat pumps and I'm looking into Solar for possibly next year. I would like to go on the C & G 2399 but no one up here does it so I did the BPEC one to satisfy the MCS requirements. I also did the Mitsubishi Ecodan training courses as they are just along the road from me.
I think that Renewables are the way forward for our industry but as already mentioned we need to get the basics sorted out first, no good putting a heat pump or solar unit on a system that doesn't work or a house poorly insulated.

 

[fuzzy]

2388 is new, i doubt many places will do it for the next 6 months or so, then itll be up and running

 

[fuzzy]

do you think this is better then the manufacture ?...as if I do manufacture one I can then not have match problem installing there products as when on training well get hands on it ! speaking of worcester .

if the manufacturer decided to change products or move into something else youd need another course. the 2399 is a qcf modern qual that can register you as a national skilled tradesman. for me the manufacturers courses are good for that product only, id do the 2399 and then any particular manufacturer prouct training after, like doing the acs and then worcester fault finding course

 

[MickW]

Scotland and Ireland are still running a Boiler Scrappage scheme. The best hope that we have in England is that boiler replacement may be included in the Green Deal.

I said I would talk about results for the main scheme last year. Once the scheme was announced, my life went mad! I was interviewed by dozens of radio and TV stations and loads of mags etc and my message was always the same - get more than one quote!

Energy suppliers, like British Gas, immediately said that they would match the governments £400 with another £400, which was an excellent marketing ploy, but I know and you know that they would still be more expensive than an independent installer. By spreading the message for householders to get more than one quote I wanted to ensure that small business got its fair share of the work.

At Baxi's request I went to a studio in London where I was telephone interviewed by a different radio station every 15 minutes for all day - that was stressful, I can tell you!

Anyway, the Guardian produced a report last year showing that the Energy Suppliers were on average a third more expensive than independents (no surprise there then!), BUT they only fitted 15% of the replacement boilers! 85% were fitted by independents.
Energy suppliers charged inflated prices in gas boiler scrappage scheme | Money | The Guardian

My fear is that, if the government does not get small installers on board, the figures will be the other way round this time - the big boys will do 85% of renewables and the small guys will dip out.

Hence the campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS.

 

[gaspastemania]

With all these courses fo this and that it makes me wonder if there is any point doing a basic nvq plumbing at all

 

[kay-jay]

i'm going to the renewables roadshow to find out a bit more about what its all about. as a one man band though i do fear that training, registration and accreditation could be too expensive

 

[northstar]

hi kay jay when and where is it at any links? thanks

 

[missplumb]

we are in the process of going into this side of the business, but the cost of the training and iso9001, iso9014, mcs acreditation, unvented, another GSRegistration, its knocking on for £10,000. thats alot of money to plow into a business just for training when there isnt a big uptake for it yet. we are lucky that we have an investor who realises that the work will not become mainstream for about 10 years and is willing to accept that and will pay for all our training now so we are ready to go if we are asked to do the job.

 

[kay-jay]

hi kay jay when and where is it at any links? thanks

http://renewables-roadshow.co.uk/mailers/july2011/

hope this helps!

i'm going to the reebok stadium as it is only a stones throw up the road from me

KJ

 

[blayedrunner]

Thanks for the link guys, going to the Coventry one. Doing my oil in August. Thank god did LPG this year as it has been earning most of my money recently!!!!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

spoke to college earlier today (will not mention its name) 2399 c&g will cost over 2.5k-what a joke ,hope I could express my self here
5 days training ! they are taking a ****

 

[tamz]

Speak to the manu's. Their courses are usually Logic or Bpec certificated and will do the same job. You will get them for free if you speak to the reps.
The whole certification game is a joke. Keeps someone in a job and hands out a worthless piece of paper to a possibly worthless recipient for doing a multiple choice question paper the dog could pass.

 

[quality]

Back to the OP I have been doin renewables for years but probably more that half my work is still gas related

 

[fuzzy]

spoke to college earlier today (will not mention its name) 2399 c&g will cost over 2.5k-what a joke ,hope I could express my self here
5 days training ! they are taking a ****

2.5k for 5 days training!!!! its normally around £100 a day so should be £500!

Each element of the 2399 is 80 hours long, plus 14 for the understanding renewables unit. I guess it will be expensive but you get a lot more than you do with the bpec which isnt qcf

 

[SafeGasInstall]

fuzzy ,do you know how much is anywhere this 2399 you way ?

 

[fuzzy]

i dont know anyone who is running it yet. because it is superior (supposedly) to bpec etc then its taking longer to get sorted in centres, theres a lot more to it, my enquiries i was told a rough guide is £100 per day plus registration fees. [DLMURL="http://www.cityandguilds.com/56842.html?s=4"]Award in Environmental Technologies | Construction and Building | City & Guilds[/DLMURL]

It says here all thats in it, i think it looks good and they are attempting to tighten up the different types of training and qualification so we all work to the same high standards and then register with the national skills academy which should benefit all in the long run. I know little about the technical side of renewables and look forward to doing this courses. I could have done the bpecs but ive decided to wait for these and do it fully and register. after all they are all dear, i want to learn as much as i can

 

[CES]

Its just a pity they are taking so long to get it out there. Until colleges start providing the course then there is no real alternative to the BPEC ones in order to get started with renewables. I think Ill probably take the course when it arrives though, looks good from what Ive read.

 

[fuzzy]

i believe the C&G's course is aligned to NOS National Occupational Standards and QCF and the others are not. I suppose you get what you pay for, my feeling is this is an attempt to get away from fast track such as 1 day courses and make it more worthwhile. My own thoughts on education is its their to provide us with the skills, not a case of get in and out with the cert as quick as i can. I do see people complain about poor skills of fellow plumbers/trainees and then want their ACS in an hour!!! We are hypercritical at times, I want a proper courses, learn something in depth and I expect to pay more and learn more as a consequence

 

[tackleburger]

Time served plumbers shouldn't be having to pay £2k to get a ticket for installing renewables of any kind. 90% of the install is the same as you have done in any plumbing related equivelant. I don't get this at all I did the solar course and all I learned was angles of the roof, sun etc positions of stats working out sizing etc. nothing difficult complete con I felt. There really is no need for certification, that was a joke no more than a tick test i got 100% and was finished in about 1/2 an hour including the commisioning list etc. Honestly it's getting ridiculous a decent set of MIs can easily cover most of what you need to know ans lets face it we were fitting solar in the eighties until gas got cheap so it's hardly new. after my last ACS I wonder about that too really.

 

[Hybrid]

I'm tired of being bled from every artery. It's bad enough having to pay someone to tell me i'm capable of doing my job but to have them meddling in how I run my business is too much.
I'm a sole trader, there's no admin department I can task with handling the QMS.

I spend enough unpaid time preparing quotes and keeping abreast of new regs and technologies without agonising over risk assessments, health and safety policies, method statements etc. I have children and a wife i'd like to see occassionally.

All in all just another way the small business is being destroyed. If it's not Tesco moving into everything from selling cars to upvc windows it's the government throwing up insurmountable obstacles preventing me from earning an honest wage and providing a good service at a reasonable price.

 

[quality]

I don't have a certificate in renewables but I happen to know what I am doin Whig probably the reason I keep gettin work 2399 seams it will help those who are new to this area of work but any decent plumber would gain nothing

 

[unguided1]

Ialso have no qualifications in heatpumps, and I am still not MCS accredited, I have no QMS and I am not paying REAL £200 a year, However I am installing MCS accredited heat pumps and signning them off on to the MCS register, therefore I am living proof that the MCS is not fit for purpose No I am not a cowboy, but because of the insistance of this rediculous idea that renewables should be a seperate industry I am going to fight this the only way I know by refusing to join it and carry on the way I have been, there fore in the eyes of the governing bodies I must be a cowboy, Yeehaw!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[fuzzy]

Time served plumbers shouldn't be having to pay £2k to get a ticket for installing renewables of any kind. 90% of the install is the same as you have done in any plumbing related equivelant. I don't get this at all I did the solar course and all I learned was angles of the roof, sun etc positions of stats working out sizing etc. nothing difficult complete con I felt. There really is no need for certification, that was a joke no more than a tick test i got 100% and was finished in about 1/2 an hour including the commisioning list etc. Honestly it's getting ridiculous a decent set of MIs can easily cover most of what you need to know ans lets face it we were fitting solar in the eighties until gas got cheap so it's hardly new. after my last ACS I wonder about that too really.

i may be on my own here but i dont think people really understand the reasoning behind these short courses. they are there to help installers not provide an opportunity to fail. They are designed to teach people and get them the skills and knowledge required. You need to be qualified before taking these courses so its presumed you already know alot, you wouldnt agree with them testing you again surely? The assessments are not to be difficult as its only an award, as opposed to a diploma. the alternative is one of two things:

1. Make it much more difficult to pass the course
2. Not bother because we are already plumbers

issue with them?

1. less people would take it or pass it and create more un qualified installers without the basic underpinning knowledge the current system gives us
2. we would then complain anyone can do it, it would probably lead to more cowboys

The ACS is a safety course, its does not train or assess you on your skills but your safety. how many people have said to me and i presume others that the acs is rubbish as it didnt teach me to fit a boiler!!! once again its not for newbies, its for already qualified and or experienced tradesmen, we seem to want it both ways. I hear complaints of too much assessment and then its too easy????????? I think people need to understand the purpose of the qualifications before criticizing

 

[fuzzy]

Ialso have no qualifications in heatpumps, and I am still not MCS accredited, I have no QMS and I am not paying REAL £200 a year, However I am installing MCS accredited heat pumps and signning them off on to the MCS register, therefore I am living proof that the MCS is not fit for purpose No I am not a cowboy, but because of the insistance of this rediculous idea that renewables should be a seperate industry I am going to fight this the only way I know by refusing to join it and carry on the way I have been, there fore in the eyes of the governing bodies I must be a cowboy, Yeehaw!!!!!!!!!!!

[DLMURL="http://www.summitskills.org.uk/public/cms/File/Renewables/employer%20brochure%20final%20version.pdf"]http://www.summitskills.org.uk/public/cms/File/Renewables/employer%20brochure%20final%20version.pdf

i[/DLMURL] think they do realise its part of out industry but want the installers to be highly skilled. I agree with most people on here but feel there is some hypocrisy. there are always people who can self train and reach high standards but we must have some control

 

[fuzzy]

your right tackleburger, we shouldnt be paying 2k for it, we should get good training, a good qualification and that in itself should be registration with a single plumbing body. why do we pay for the quals and then registration? they should be one and the same

 

[unguided1]

I agree with the need for control and as our Industry stands the only control is used against registerd installers not the real cowboys so as Long as I stay unregistered I have no fear of any type of prosecution and considering that our industry is completely being regulated the wrong way round I have no respect for the powers that be

 

[fuzzy]

but surely thats the reason control must be improved to stop that happening

 

[unguided1]

I totaly agree but why should I waste my money being regulated when the regulator can do nothing to stop me??

 

[markfxy]

C&G 2399 is still a fast track course when compared to a 4 year apprenticeship why should I be required to do this or a BPEC course to learn about another heat source when I already know how to design and size a heating system. A manufacturers 1 day course which covers the commisioning of a particular heat pump is far more useful and a damn sight cheaper.

 

[tackleburger]

i may be on my own here but i dont think people really understand the reasoning behind these short courses. they are there to help installers not provide an opportunity to fail. They are designed to teach people and get them the skills and knowledge required. You need to be qualified before taking these courses so its presumed you already know alot, you wouldnt agree with them testing you again surely? The assessments are not to be difficult as its only an award, as opposed to a diploma. the alternative is one of two things:

1. Make it much more difficult to pass the course
2. Not bother because we are already plumbers

issue with them?

1. less people would take it or pass it and create more un qualified installers without the basic underpinning knowledge the current system gives us
2. we would then complain anyone can do it, it would probably lead to more cowboys

The ACS is a safety course, its does not train or assess you on your skills but your safety. how many people have said to me and i presume others that the acs is rubbish as it didnt teach me to fit a boiler!!! once again its not for newbies, its for already qualified and or experienced tradesmen, we seem to want it both ways. I hear complaints of too much assessment and then its too easy????????? I think people need to understand the purpose of the qualifications before criticizing

Fair points however the solar thermal course which cost the thick end of £500 taught me nothing in reality so I for one don't think that course is worth anything. ACS I guess you are right but it is still a bit of a joke and some of the guys who get through I wouldn't have in my house. I can't comment on other renewables because I haven't attend the courses.

I would suggest that qualified plumbers can go to the manufacturers and get taught for free. I learned as much in a day with Alpha for free as I did doing the BPEC course. There has to be a better way is all I am suggesting and you are right to challenge my thoughts but the current systems clearly have major flaws and disadvantage sole traders for sure.

 

[markfxy]

You're dead right tackleburger most of the problems with heat pumps are because they are undersized and not commisioned properly a manufacturers course would cover this whereas BPEC and LOGIC courses wont cover the commisioning side of things.