Hot water from Valliant Boiler

[Margaret T]

A brand new valliant ecotec 618 boiler was installed less than 6 months old. We started experiencing no hot water from the 4th month. The only way to have hot water is by having both the heating and hot water switched on together. Given hot weather in the UK last week, we switched off the heating but then found there to be no hot water. Or the alternative way to have hot water is leaving the immersion switch on constantly.

My questions are:
1. Is this correct?
2. Should the immersion switch be on constantly?
3. Must both heater and hot water be switched on together in order to get hot water? We don't need the heater on especially in the summer months.
4. What could be the problem?

Any ideas, please?

Thanks a lot

Margaret

Background
The Valliant boiler located kitchen ground floor is connected to a blue hot water cylinder on the first-floor air cupboard. A new hive system controller.
On installation, whole house new radiators were installed and power flushed, 2 new zone valves plus magnetic filter installed. Both the valiant and hive is brand new. The boiler was installed first. Then the hive was set up afterwards and runs on schedule (e.g. morning 0645am - 0800am) and evening - as not needed during day time as not at home).

From September 2018 to December 2018 - everything was working fine.
January 2019 - there was an airlock
February 2019 - the person replaced a syncron motor on the heating valve
March 2019 - says to keep the immersion on constant
- we switched off heating but then hot water stopped

19/04/2019 - Called British Gas and they replaced the valliant PCB board
23/04/2019 - Valliant attended and looked at Boiler and says no issue with the boiler
24/04/2019 - Still no hot water when heater switched off - British Gas came and can't diagnose the issue.

I wish I kept the existing boiler rather than change to this new valiant with the hive. Everything before was working perfectly until the above.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

I find this quite odd. Are you sure that the installer of the boiler was aGas Safe registered individual and that the installer of the system (if different) was a a credible plumber?

The issues you describe and the actions being taken just don’t seem credible to me.

On the basis that the boiler is performing properly, any reputable plumber should be able to diagnose (and probably fix) the problem with your hot water on site within 1 to 2 hours.

A good rule of thumb, is to diagnose the problem, think through the solution then get your tools out and implement it. Be very wary of people get their tools out before having thought through what the problem is

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

I find this quite odd. Are you sure that the installer of the boiler was aGas Safe registered individual and that the installer of the system (if different) was a a credible plumber?

The issues you describe and the actions being taken just don’t seem credible to me.

On the basis that the boiler is performing properly, any reputable plumber should be able to diagnose (and probably fix) the problem with your hot water on site within 1 to 2 hours.

A good rule of thumb, is to diagnose the problem, think through the solution then get your tools out and implement it. Be very wary of people get their tools out before having thought through what the problem is

Hello Brambles, he was obtained from Valiant website to have a valiant boiler installed, he is also on the gas safety register website.

Upon completion, initially, I did had to chase for the paperwork completion to obtain the 10-year guarantee and received this. (1) buildings regulation compliance gas safety certificate letter from vaillant; (2) buildings regulation certificate of compliance issued by vaillant; (3) Vaillant letter that my 10 years extended guaranteed.

I do recall when British Gas (BG) came on 24/04/2019 (was here for 2.5 hours), BG said might need to lift the flooring in the airing cupboard where the blue HW cylinder sits to see the pipe works but told me to contact the installer. I called for the installer and he came on 30/04/2019 checked the Drayton valves and the black airlock switch, having done the purge manually without using hive and lifting hallway floor boards to look for a T pipe or something, he then went to change the pipes in the kitchen from straight 2 straws to criss-cross. He then tried to test for HW and there was air sound splurging sound, he said the HW was still going in reverse flow. At the last resort, he said he still couldn't understand why the HW is reverse flowing that he then said may need to lift the flooring underneath the hot water cylinder tank in air cupboard.

At present, everything is left on running CH + HW, all radiators turned down and waiting for his return.

Hope this clarifies.
Thanks

 

[Burger]

Hi Margaret, I see in your response to @Brambles that the heating SYNCHRON motor was changed, yet the issue could be the hot water one.

 

[Margaret T]

Hi Margaret, I see in your response to @Brambles that the heating SYNCHRON motor was changed, yet the issue could be the hot water one.

Hello CMW1982, yes, I see on my very first OP on this forum that it was the heating synchron changed and the installer said that to me.

To note, he tried testing hot water by removing and not having the drayton cubes attached/connected to CH pipe and HW pipe. I recall that both B.Gas and himself held the HW drayton cube to their ears. Not sure what they listening to.

By the way, why would the CH Drayton synchron need changing if new and less than 6 months?

 

[Burger]

Hello CMW1982, yes, I see on my very first OP on this forum that it was the heating synchron changed and the installer said that to me.

To note, he tried testing hot water by removing and not having the drayton cubes attached/connected to CH pipe and HW pipe. I recall that both B.Gas and himself held the HW drayton cube to their ears. Not sure what they listening to.

By the way, why would the CH Drayton synchron need changing if new and less than 6 months?

I wouldn’t know on that as things fail for a reason be it poor quality or poor system conditions.

Regarding the listening, they may have been trying to hear the motor turning or even the microswitch.

 

[Burger]

Hi Margaret, are you still in the same scenario?

I’ve just been studying your photo of the cylinder cupboard, and I could be wrong (I am tired)but want to clarify something that’s bugging me. Are you able to photograph the yellowed markups on photo more closely? I want to see if the chrome valve is open, and also where that 15mm pipe tees in. I’m trying to figure out I feel your flow and return are piped up wrong. The Magnaclean states flow of water one way, but it could be another way?

 

[Margaret T]

Hi Margaret, are you still in the same scenario?

I’ve just been studying your photo of the cylinder cupboard, and I could be wrong (I am tired)but want to clarify something that’s bugging me. Are you able to photograph the yellowed markups on photo more closely? I want to see if the chrome valve is open, and also where that 15mm pipe tees in. I’m trying to figure out I feel your flow and return are piped up wrong. The Magnaclean states flow of water one way, but it could be another way?

View attachment 38466

Morning CBW1982, yes, I am still in the same scenario. Please see photograph markups more closely, (these were how they were situated (24/04/2019). The installer, he visited 30/04/2019 and said he will leave them off and they are not hanging on the pipework at present). Thanks a lot.

 

[Brambles]

If I read those photos correctly, the flow is being directed into the DHW tank through both the flow and return connections.

Boiler Flow being directed to the two two port valves (HW and CH) and the magnaclean! HW return connection connected to the Magnaclean on the flow side. Ie. Flow to flow on the HW circuit when the two port valve is opened.

Margaret, I cannot see that this installation has been plumbed in by anyone with basic plumbing or heating engineering experience.

If I include the work undertaken to switch flow and return in one if your earlier posts and your comment that the valve actuators have mbeen left disconnected - it has all the signs of the work being undertaken by someone with a very low level of understanding as to how an S plan system works.

You need a normal plumber to come in and instal the pipework in a conventional manner for an S plan system. Thereafter, to check the connections and commission the Nest controller.

 

[Burger]

Morning Margaret, thanks for the photos. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but as @Brambles has said that looks like it’s been done unprofessionally, (but I think you knew that). It is fixable, but not sure how you go about trying to reclaim costs from your original installer, as if it were me I wouldn’t have him back. There is an isolation valve (chrome valve circled in my edited photo) turned off, and flow is either going backwards from magnetic filter (magnaclean) or the flow comes up to a closed off iso valve and through the return. Either way for this to function as it should then it needs sorting.

 

[Margaret T]

If I read those photos correctly, the flow is being directed into the DHW tank through both the flow and return connections.

Boiler Flow being directed to the two two port valves (HW and CH) and the magnaclean! HW return connection connected to the Magnaclean on the flow side. Ie. Flow to flow on the HW circuit when the two port valve is opened.

Margaret, I cannot see that this installation has been plumbed in by anyone with basic plumbing or heating engineering experience.

If I include the work undertaken to switch flow and return in one if your earlier posts and your comment that the valve actuators have mbeen left disconnected - it has all the signs of the work being undertaken by someone with a very low level of understanding as to how an S plan system works.

You need a normal plumber to come in and instal the pipework in a conventional manner for an S plan system. Thereafter, to check the connections and commission the Nest controller.

Hello Brambles, thanks for the above. Just wanted to mention, in case I typed incorrect, I meant that the installer, he said he will leave the Drayton off and not attached to the pipework (it is dangling down and not 'clipped' onto the CH pipework). Hope this clarifies that part.

 

[Burger]

Hello Brambles, thanks for the above. Just wanted to mention, in case I typed incorrect, I meant that the installer, he said he will leave the Drayton off and not attached to the pipework (it is dangling down and not 'clipped' onto the CH pipework). Hope this clarifies that part.

This is what Brambles means, the Drayton (actuator - plumber/heating engineer terminology) has been disconnected, as in dangling down. You have flow into your cylinder twice, and possibly not going somewhere else as the isolation valve is off. Below is a ‘basic’ principle of how your system should work, however where it is blue, yours is red, and where it is red, yours is red. Hope this makes a bit more sense?

 

[Margaret T]

If I read those photos correctly, the flow is being directed into the DHW tank through both the flow and return connections.

Boiler Flow being directed to the two two port valves (HW and CH) and the magnaclean! HW return connection connected to the Magnaclean on the flow side. Ie. Flow to flow on the HW circuit when the two port valve is opened.

Margaret, I cannot see that this installation has been plumbed in by anyone with basic plumbing or heating engineering experience.

If I include the work undertaken to switch flow and return in one if your earlier posts and your comment that the valve actuators have mbeen left disconnected - it has all the signs of the work being undertaken by someone with a very low level of understanding as to how an S plan system works.

You need a normal plumber to come in and instal the pipework in a conventional manner for an S plan system. Thereafter, to check the connections and commission the Nest controller.

The magnaclean is new and was installed with the new Vaillant boiler. We didn't have this before. Likewise, the 2x Drayton and hive controller all new. Would the criss-cross be an issue and can these be put back to straight straws? Regarding the lifting of floorboards, he said he was looking for 'T pipe' or 'T valve' (I dont fully recall which) but he said was looking for 'T something' which was why the floorboards were lifted and he wanted to find the pipes from the airing cupboard to the where the boiler is situated in the kitchen. I recall the pipework running along the floor (where flooring lifted) the "middle" pipework was hot.

 

[Aire]

This is what Brambles means, the Drayton (actuator - plumber/heating engineer terminology) has been disconnected, as in dangling down. You have flow into your cylinder twice, and possibly not going somewhere else as the isolation valve is off. Below is a ‘basic’ principle of how your system should work, however where it is blue, yours is red, and where it is red, yours is red. Hope this makes a bit more sense?

View attachment 38483

The pic isn't clear but I believe the 15mm coming from the flow before the magna clean is just a bypass which is teed in to the top connection of the 22mm cylinder return.

 

[Burger]

The pic isn't clear but I believe the 15mm coming from the flow before the magna clean is just a bypass which is teed in to the top connection of the 22mm cylinder return.

If you mean the iso valve this appears to be closed. Also there’s another valve (looks like a lockshield) on the return pipe from cylinder. Whatever is wrong with the installation needs correcting.

Margaret, I don’t think re-doing the pipes (straws as you are referring) straight will make a difference.

 

[Aire]

Yeah the lockshied that's closed, to me looks like it should be a bypass, not 2 flow pipes. I'm not sure what that valve on the return is, looks like an old straight radiator valve.

But yes it does want correcting and I think Margaret should bite the bullet and call in another independent engineer.

 

[Burger]

The other angle I was looking at was the direction of flow on the Drayton valves. Should flow from A through to B, but looks incorrect on this set-up.

 

[Aire]

Yep, both the wrong way round by the looks of it, might explain why she's had to have new actuators so soon.

 

[Burger]

Hi Margaret,

I’m not how good they are, or sure if they do the heating/hot water side, but might be worth calling these?

Expert Vaillant Boiler Servicing Repairs. Ex-Vaillant Engineers London

 

[Margaret T]

The other angle I was looking at was the direction of flow on the Drayton valves. Should flow from A through to B, but looks incorrect on this set-up.

View attachment 38484

Hello there, I recall, when I pressed the hive to boost for HW (meaning 'on'), the Drayton on the HW pipe (was on A, and the black clip on the top was upwards popped out heading upwards). But when I clicked cancel HW Boost on the hive, the black on side slided downwards to B, and the top clip also slid downwards. Hope this makes sense as to what I saw.

 

[Margaret T]

This is what Brambles means, the Drayton (actuator - plumber/heating engineer terminology) has been disconnected, as in dangling down. You have flow into your cylinder twice, and possibly not going somewhere else as the isolation valve is off. Below is a ‘basic’ principle of how your system should work, however where it is blue, yours is red, and where it is red, yours is red. Hope this makes a bit more sense?

View attachment 38483

Thanks, CBW1982 for the diagram, would this possibly explain why my water is only lukewarm and not hot? [When immersion switched off and Hive left to run as per the set schedule timer]

 

[Riley]

The valve on the return from the cylinder is to throttle down the cylinder to slow the flow and help with heat transfer

 

[Burger]

Hello there, I recall, when I pressed the hive to boost for HW (meaning 'on'), the Drayton on the HW pipe (was on A, and the black clip on the top was upwards popped out heading upwards). But when I clicked cancel HW Boost on the hive, the black on side slided downwards to B, and the top clip also slid downwards. Hope this makes sense as to what I saw.

Hi Margaret,

It should when on go towards B, then return to A

 

[Burger]

Thanks, CBW1982 for the diagram, would this possibly explain why my water is only lukewarm and not hot? [When immersion switched off and Hive left to run as per the set schedule timer]

It certainly sounds like it

 

[Margaret T]

Hi Margaret,

It should when on go towards B, then return to A

Morning CBW1982, I recall when it was HW was activated for 'on' it was A, and when I clicked cancel on the Hive boost - the Drayton cube slid back down to 'B' and the clip on the top of the cube also went downwards.

 

[Burger]

Morning CBW1982, I recall when it was HW was activated for 'on' it was A, and when I clicked cancel on the Hive boost - the Drayton cube slid back down to 'B' and the clip on the top of the cube also went downwards.

Morning Margaret,

I would say that this is incorrect, and is probably as Craig has said why you needed a new synchron motor in the heating, wouldn’t surprise me if you needed one for the hot water also. It’s obviously been setup wrong, and as difficult as it sounds, I think you need to write off your other engineer and get another one in - maybe one for Citizens Advice? I would also complain to Vaillant as you obtained your engineer from their website - maybe something they could help with?

 

[Aire]

Morning Margaret,

I would say that this is incorrect, and is probably as Craig has said why you needed a new synchron motor in the heating, wouldn’t surprise me if you needed one for the hot water also. It’s obviously been setup wrong, and as difficult as it sounds, I think you need to write off your other engineer and get another one in - maybe one for Citizens Advice? I would also complain to Vaillant as you obtained your engineer from their website - maybe something they could help with?

Definitely complain to vaillant. The engineers on their website the same as Any other only means they have completed one of their training courses. It doesn't actually mean the installer knows what they are doing.

 

[Margaret T]

Definitely complain to vaillant. The engineers on their website the same as Any other only means they have completed one of their training courses. It doesn't actually mean the installer knows what they are doing.

Hello Craig, I remember I called out Vaillant and an engineer visited because of the reoccurring problem. He said it was nothing to do with the boiler and to contact the installer. The Vaillant engineer also said that they are not responsible for the installer even though I told him this person was obtained from their website, the Vaillant male said: "the installer is not employed by them". They are denying responsibility.

I also recall that I asked whether if there are there any other works required for the installation before any works started, and the installer said no and that all prices have been factored in.

Not sure where to go with this. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, everyone on here.

 

[Aire]

Hello Craig, I remember I called out Vaillant and an engineer visited because of the reoccurring problem. He said it was nothing to do with the boiler and to contact the installer. The Vaillant engineer also said that they are not responsible for the installer even though I told him this person was obtained from their website, the Vaillant male said: "the installer is not employed by them". They are denying responsibility. Not sure where to go with this. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, everyone on here.

Vaillant themselves aren't responsible for the installs of the independent installers on their website and to be honest, I'm not sure if a complaint will get you anything other than an apology but if it was me, I would still complain as an installer who they have effectively recommended has messed up and is costing you time and possibly money.

 

[Burger]

Hello Craig, I remember I called out Vaillant and an engineer visited because of the reoccurring problem. He said it was nothing to do with the boiler and to contact the installer. The Vaillant engineer also said that they are not responsible for the installer even though I told him this person was obtained from their website, the Vaillant male said: "the installer is not employed by them". They are denying responsibility.

I also recall that I asked whether if there are there any other works required for the installation before any works started, and the installer said no and that all prices have been factored in.

Not sure where to go with this. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, everyone on here.

Hello Margaret,

As myself and Craig have suggested, still complain to Vaillant because you have an installation that in effect you can’t use correctly. I have replied stating maybe CAB as you have a product that is not fit for purpose.

Thanks,
Chris.

 

[SimonG]

Forget Vaillant, the boilers fine and although you obtained the installers info off of their website they won't give a monkeys. They should do though, and remove the installer, but it will be of no concern to them.
Write a letter, recorded delivery, to the installer. Outline the issues and state if you do not receive within 7 days a definitive way forward to correct the install then you will have no option but to employ somebody to correct the installation at their expense.
No more phone calls only letters.