Air in CH system and hot water returning to FE tank via the cold feed

[Tiggy1955]

I have a problem with air being sucked into my CH system creating airlocks in the radiators. The water is flowing back into the FE tank via the cold feed pipe. I can feel warm water coming through the feed pipe back into the tank as the tank water level slowly get higher. I can hear the overflow gurgling in the FE tank.

The system is 20 years old but the Worcester Bosch boiler is only 9 years old. All has worked perfectly well. I did have the classic blockage where the cold feed meets the hot return but the clogged pipes have been cut out and replaced.

I have fitted a new pump and it is set to the lowest speed. All of the radiators have been bled many times and balanced.

So the heating is working fine except that I have this problem of the air displacing the water back to the FE tank. The water it getting back into the tank a quite a rate - I would say about 2 litres per hour. This means that the rads need to be bled constantly.

Any ideas? Could it be an problem with the boiler itself?

 

[Ric2013]

At 6l/m the old UPS 15/50 had around a 3m head and the UPS 15/60 around 3.6m head.

The very old Selectric UPS 15/50 and Super-Selectric 15/60 has 7 and 9 foot head, at 6l/min respectively, so a little less. (I say 'has' in the present tense because I know at least one that is still running.)

All the above are on speed 1.

I suppose it would be useful to plot a little chart showing various types of pump curve all on the same axes, so comparisons could be made.

Why am I still up?

 

[John.g]

At 6l/m the old UPS 15/50 had around a 3m head and the UPS 15/60 around 3.6m head.

The very old Selectric UPS 15/50 and Super-Selectric 15/60 has 7 and 9 foot head, at 6l/min respectively, so a little less. (I say 'has' in the present tense because I know at least one that is still running.)

All the above are on speed 1.

I suppose it would be useful to plot a little chart showing various types of pump curve all on the same axes, so comparisons could be made.

Why am I still up?

Will put together one (chart) later today, I will include my own old Salmson NYL 33 which I installed in Sept 2000 set to speed 2 and was still running perfectly and quietly when I replaced it last November with a Wilo Yonos Pico 1-6 last November.

 

[tonyt]

A bit off thread but I love this forum! It's so good to see people discussing issues using reasoned and evidenced facts supported by experience rather then slagging each other off.

 

[Ric2013]

A bit off thread but I love this forum! It's so good to see people discussing issues using reasoned and evidenced facts supported by experience rather then slagging each other off.

That's because I'm a left-leaning liberal **** as they say on Youtube when I'm trying to make a reasoned point.

 

[John.g]

Will put together one (chart) later today, I will include my own old Salmson NYL 33 which I installed in Sept 2000 set to speed 2 and was still running perfectly and quietly when I replaced it last November with a Wilo Yonos Pico 1-6 last November.

Here it is, I wouldn't care to be running a few of these on even fixed speed 1, especially the UPS 3 .

 

[Ric2013]

Here it is, I wouldn't care to be running a few of these on even fixed speed 1, especially the UPS 3 .

Doesn't work on Libreoffice. Thanks though.

 

[John.g]

Doesn't work on Libreoffice. Thanks though.

Here's a snapshot of it & also a Zipped word copy.

 

[Ric2013]

I take it that's the old UPS and not the very old one, but it looks wrong. The UPS 15-50 starts at a 0 flow at 3.5m exactly, so how are you getting 3.76? Have you yet another IOM, as that differs from my data?

 

[John.g]

I take it that's the old UPS and not the very old one, but it looks wrong. The UPS 15-50 starts at a 0 flow at 3.5m exactly, so how are you getting 3.76? Have you yet another IOM, as that differs from my data?

You posted

I take it that's the old UPS and not the very old one, but it looks wrong. The UPS 15-50 starts at a 0 flow at 3.5m exactly, so how are you getting 3.76? Have you yet another IOM, as that differs from my data?

I got it from one of your files above... "Selectric UPS Old Style" page 1 shows speed 1 curve starting at 3.75/3.76M ?.

 

[John.g]

At 6l/m the old UPS 15/50 had around a 3m head and the UPS 15/60 around 3.6m head.

The very old Selectric UPS 15/50 and Super-Selectric 15/60 has 7 and 9 foot head, at 6l/min respectively, so a little less. (I say 'has' in the present tense because I know at least one that is still running.)

All the above are on speed 1.

I suppose it would be useful to plot a little chart showing various types of pump curve all on the same axes, so comparisons could be made.

Why am I still up?

Can you post any links (charts etc) to a UPS 25-50 Selectric, power outputs 40W, 65W & 95W. (installed in a new build house in 2005/2006), still running.
Thanks.

 

[Ric2013]

You posted


I got it from one of your files above... "Selectric UPS Old Style" page 1 shows speed 1 curve starting at 3.75/3.76M ?.

Can you look at the chart on my file again and tell me what you see? I make it between 3.5 and 3.6 and would like to know if this is human or electronic error.
This is how it appears on my screen:

 

[doitmyself]

Can you look at the chart on my file again and tell me what you see? I make it between 3.5 and 3.6 and would like to know if this is human or electronic error.
This is how it appears on my screen:View attachment 36507

I have to agree with john.g. The speed 1 line crosses the y-axis at 3.75.

 

[John.g]

Can you look at the chart on my file again and tell me what you see? I make it between 3.5 and 3.6 and would like to know if this is human or electronic error.
This is how it appears on my screen:View attachment 36507

(Internet down for past few hours so couldn't relpy)

A bit confused as to why you ask human /electronic error as this I presume is a grundfos data sheet that you posted?, I just copied the data from it into my own spreadsheet, if you can post the proper chart I can incorporate that data in the spreadsheet and re post.

 

[Ric2013]

It's okay John. I'm not very good at reading data from a screen for some reason and I was reading the digits 3.5 against the 3.75 line.

So ignore my comments above.

 

[John.g]

It's okay John. I'm not very good at reading data from a screen for some reason and I was reading the digits 3.5 against the 3.75 line.

So ignore my comments above.

No problem, if you do come across any info on that 25-50 selectric with those power settings I would appreciate it. (#70)

 

[Ric2013]

Have you tried asking Grundfos? I think that's where I got the file for the VERY old Selectric pumps from. Rang them and asked for the curves IIRC.

 

[doitmyself]

Can you post any links (charts etc) to a UPS 25-50 Selectric, power outputs 40W, 65W & 95W. (installed in a new build house in 2005/2006), still running.
Thanks.

The curves are exactly the same as for the UPS 15-50 Selectric of the same vintage. The innards are the same, it's just the connections which are different.

 

[John.g]

The curves are exactly the same as for the UPS 15-50 Selectric of the same vintage. The innards are the same, it's just the connections which are different.

ref post#61
File "selectric UPS pumps old" shows the UPS 15-50 with power inputs of 35/45/50 watts. In "selectric very old" it shows the UPS 15-50 with power inputs of 40/65/100 watts with different speeds/curves, my query pump, a UPS 25-50 has power inputs of 40/65/95 so I will assume that the pump curves are similar to the latter one, above, its a 2005/2006 install. I wonder what was the time span period for the UPS 15-50 35/45/50 watts.

 

[doitmyself]

Here is the info you are looking for. The PC 9706 on pump data plate (see pic of the pump) shows that it was in production in 1997.

 

[John.g]

Here is the info you are looking for. The PC 9706 on pump data plate (see pic of the pump) shows that it was in production in 1997.

Thanks for that data.

 

[John.g]

Here is the info you are looking for. The PC 9706 on pump data plate (see pic of the pump) shows that it was in production in 1997.

Just received a photo of the pump, it seems a difficult one to track down, I presume the PC 0414 means it was manufactured in 2004.
Thanks again

 

[doitmyself]

I presume the PC 0414 means it was manufactured in 2004.

Week 14 of 2004 to be precise.

It's instructive to see how the performance of the 'same' pump has changed over time. (You should have three versions now.)

 

[Ajlsat]

sure i am in wrong place, can someone direct me. where to ask question ref heat pump instalation.thanks

QUOTE="John.g, post: 1022186, member: 99812"]I suppose we should bear in mind that the UPS2 hasn't true fixed speed curves. Even speed 1 will give a constant head of 4M from 0 to ~ 6 LPM before the head starts falling, (any real fixed speed pump head starts dropping immediately on flow demand) which with modern zoning/TRV's etc will cater for over 6 kw of heat demand at a deltaT of 15C. and with the retro fitting of condensing oil/gas boilers the trend is to get a greater deltaT of 20C to enhance the condensing effect thus leading to even lower circulation rates. So in a house with even just basic insulation could very easily be running the UPS2 pump at the ridiculously high head of 4M on "fixed speed" for significant periods of time.
I havn't any pump curves for the older UPS pumps but I would think that they would have been operating at least 1/1.5M lower head?
Having said that the 3M PP head is a bit mean to say the least and certainly will fall short in a lot of instances as on PP control the head falls with reduced flow demand so to cater for both full heating flow rates and reduced demand it would have been nice if 3.5M to 4M was available, as was pointed out above, The UPS 3 has now got a 3.6M PP head. (AND has two CP (constant pressure) settings as well!)
This one may have been replaced in a lot of cases by the UPS 2.
https://product-selection.grundfos....tid=GMA&productnumber=97549426&qcid=501056454[/QUOTE]

 

[SJB060685]

So if your ballcock were not refilling the F&E, and no overflowing took place, you think the volume of water in the system would stay the same? There isn't any being added, by, say, a leak from the coil in your hot water cylinder?

Took the words out of my mouth lol

 

[John.g]

Took the words out of my mouth lol

The air in the rads is/was displacing the water??

 

[SJB060685]

The air in the rads is/was displacing the water??

Well any air in the system will displace water. I thought my post was agreeing with someone suggest a split in cylinder coil?

 

[John.g]

Well any air in the system will displace water. I thought my post was agreeing with someone suggest a split in cylinder coil?

I thought the OP ruled that out by changing the pump settings to PP control which reduced the pump head and stopped the water returning to the feed & expansion tank and drawing air in through the vent. If the coil is split he would be getting a continuous overflow from the F & E Tank.

 

[SJB060685]

I thought the OP ruled that out by changing the pump settings to PP control which reduced the pump head and stopped the water returning to the feed & expansion tank and drawing air in through the vent. If the coil is split he would be getting a continuous overflow from the F & E Tank.

Yeah but I thought I said that before I’d read every comment lol. I know you suggesting or whoever it was to make this adjustment solved it.