Zoning education.

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So what happens when the customers phones you up saying its cold downstairs? Tell them to turn the heating on upstairs? Goes against the reasons for doing a detailed heat loss calc.

i can kind of understand in new build where the insulation between floors is good but for retro?

ive heard the zoning requirements are going to be amended
 
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But it could be that the radiator isn't capable of raising the temp as the design heat loss is less than the actual losses because of the unheated areas?

i know this is worst case, but weather compensation could cause this to happen more often.
 
Nostrum said:
But it could be that the radiator isn't capable of raising the temp as the design heat loss is less than the actual losses because of the unheated areas?

i know this is worst case, but weather compensation could cause this to happen more often.
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The zones are heated to whatever the temp is set to on stat simple
Your heat loss is per room
 
But the emitter is matched to the heat loss of that room based on fabric losses including the surfaces above and below. A colder room upstairs will promote a greater loss than if it were heated. So if you deign the system correctly, and choose a radiator to suit the heat losses of a room with a heated room above. Then run the system with an unheated space above. At the specified outside temperature the emitter will technically be undersized.

How much by will depend on a lot of factors so I'm not sure how much effect it would have, but from a theoretical point of view I struggle to see how you can zone a system and design it to operate in the conditions you have designed it for effectively.

i suppose most people don't give a toss but I like to be given a logical explanation for these regulations that are introduced by some pen pusher.
 
Your designed temp is 21 living and 18 bedrooms
But as we all know some people like it higher some lower
Do you factor that into your design no we aim for a set point only
So the room will be heated to that desired temp on stat
If the room above to side or underneath is at a lower temp it may and only may as depends on a lot of things ie insulation even to if the person leaves a door open or closed
We can't factor that fine a detail on it nor would I want to
 
Nostrum said:
What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?
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That asumes conventional construction and have found these days more and more floor spaces are being insulated either for soundproofing or heat loss !
Drives the sparkies mad as cables have to be uprated if insulated !
 
I see what your saying but if you look at it on a larger scale, say an older style large detached house, the whole of upstairs could be off on a zone. Therefore you've effectively halved the heat output but the heat loss remains the same. Ok there are surfaces in between these two zones that would reduce the heat loss rate but it is still going to have an effect surely? I struggle to see how the zoning will save any significant amount of energy after factoring the cost of the extra controls in a retro fit. A good idea in principle but flawed in my opinion. A well designed system with correctly sized radiators would be much more beneficial pound for pound.
 
Nostrum said:
I see what your saying but if you look at it on a larger scale, say an older style large detached house, the whole of upstairs could be off on a zone. Therefore you've effectively halved the heat output but the heat loss remains the same. Ok there are surfaces in between these two zones that would reduce the heat loss rate but it is still going to have an effect surely? I struggle to see how the zoning will save any significant amount of energy after factoring the cost of the extra controls in a retro fit. A good idea in principle but flawed in my opinion. A well designed system with correctly sized radiators would be much more beneficial pound for pound.
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On a retrofit the best money spent is on insulation before anything else
 
basildog said:
That asumes conventional construction and have found these days more and more floor spaces are being insulated either for soundproofing or heat loss !
Drives the sparkies mad as cables have to be uprated if insulated !
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yes and I would completely agree with this in a new build as said before, I'm questioning its effectiveness in a retro fit scenario as they try to imply in part L.
 
Gray0689 said:
On a retrofit the best money spent is on insulation before anything else
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the basics, of course, but the costs of ripping up the floors between intermediate levels and internal walls would be prohibitive.
 
Nostrum said:
yes and I would completely agree with this in a new build as said before, I'm questioning its effectiveness in a retro fit scenario as they try to imply in part L.
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I have never done New build apart from extensions but have done a lot of total refurbs where floors are all up !
I guess all jobs really need to be treated on their own but as we all know this will never fit in to some pen pushers litle boxes ?
 
Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!
 
Nostrum said:
Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!
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With the lot I used to work for they change houses as often as wives and money really is not something they worry about until they have to pay you !
If the Feng Shui master says wooden floors then wooden floors wifey gets !
 
Nostrum said:
Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!
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It's for a total refurb only
 
Gray0689 said:
Your designed temp is 21 living and 18 bedrooms
But as we all know some people like it higher some lower
Do you factor that into your design no we aim for a set point only
So the room will be heated to that desired temp on stat
If the room above to side or underneath is at a lower temp it may and only may as depends on a lot of things ie insulation even to if the person leaves a door open or closed
We can't factor that fine a detail on it nor would I want to
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Will just take longer to hit set point that's the beauty of the zoned system. All zones reach desired temp no matter what the external conditions (within reason) all that changes is the lag (time to reach set point)
 
There will never be a better time to fit heating controls gas and electricity prices set to rise substantially every year for the 17 years, over the rate of inflation, not my words,
your governments.
 
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Arctic winter conditions are on the way, gas has just gone up 10% across the piece, long range forecast long hard winter, now do you think full house zoning is a good or bad idea. We are importing LPG from Africa to top up our failing North Sea gas fields, when are people going to listen, I will bet there will be gas shortages in 2014, if they are right with the long range forecast there will no doubt be power cuts.
 
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happyflyer said:
Arctic winter conditions are on the way, gas has just gone up 10% across the piece, long range forecast long hard winter, now do you think full house zoning is a good or bad idea. We are importing LPG from Africa to top up our failing North Sea gas fields, when are people going to listen, I will bet there will be gas shortages in 2014, if they are right with the long range forecast there will no doubt be power cuts.
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Great idea, just not cost effective unless new build.
 
Cost of new install in existing house : circa £4000

cost of new instal in existing house (zoned) : circa £4600

customer " I'll take option one please"
 
Leo21 said:
Cost of new install in existing house : circa £4000

cost of new instal in existing house (zoned) : circa £4600

customer " I'll take option one please"
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Try this for size Leo, gas saved in first year £600, your move!!!
 
happyflyer said:
Try this for size Leo, gas saved in first year £600, your move!!!
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Your having a laugh, gas saved first year £80 max. Third year synchron motor fails. Costs £95 to repair. Your move. Oh and my combined gas and lecky bil isl £1200 with a standard efficiency boiler. So how your going to save £600 is beyond me.
 
Leo21 said:
Your having a laugh, gas saved first year £80 max. Third year synchron motor fails. Costs £95 to repair. Your move. Oh and my combined gas and lecky bil isl £1200 with a standard efficiency boiler. So how your going to save £600 is beyond me.
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Leo,

Does your mam pay the gas bill at your house, I live under a stone and it cost me more than £600 a year for gas
 
dancinplumba said:
Zoning is pointless in yer average 2 up 2 down.
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dancin,

It all relative, and someone who as a 2 up 2 is probably on relative earnings and I say probably having started my married life in one, I had no money then, the answer
to all this is simple zoning ain't going up in price the rate gas is.
 
Please explain the estimated savings happy flyer, how have you come to this figure?
 
Nostrum said:
Please explain the estimated savings happy flyer, how have you come to this figure?
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Nostrum,

Try this for size Leo, gas saved in first year £600, your move!!!

It was a mere statement not and estimate, how could I estimate it when I don't know what the said gas bill was anyway, I just know that full house zoning saves money,
time and temperature control of every room in the house is the future, maybe you can't see it just yet, but you will. When I was a lad car did 25 mpg at best and petrol was 20 p gallon,
am I painting the right picture, cars do 60 MPG and petrol £6.00 gallon.

I must be the only person on this forum who believes that full house zoning saves money and is a good investment or you are all winding me up!!!
 
Not really, but I base my opinions on fact not a figure plucked out of the sky.

£600 equates to over 13,000 kwh's of gas at 4.5p/kwh. Based on Ofgems estimations, the average house uses between 16,000-20,000 kwh annually for space heating AND hot water, I find your estimation a touch on the optimistic side?
 
Nostrum said:
Not really, but I base my opinions on fact not a figure plucked out of the sky.

£600 equates to over 13,000 kwh's of gas at 4.5p/kwh. Based on Ofgems estimations, the average house uses between 16,000-20,000 kwh annually for space heating AND hot water, I find your estimation a touch on the optimistic side?
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Bloody hell Nostrum, who knew!
 
Nostrum said:
Not really, but I base my opinions on fact not a figure plucked out of the sky.

£600 equates to over 13,000 kwh's of gas at 4.5p/kwh. Based on Ofgems estimations, the average house uses between 16,000-20,000 kwh annually for space heating AND hot water, I find your estimation a touch on the optimistic side?
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I recollect that one chap last week said his gas usage was 42,000 kwh, plucked out the sky yes but conceivable in London, mind you this is not what me and you are talking about, we are talking about Mr & Mrs Average 3 bed, look at it this way and see if this helps. Cost of 8 zone valves fitted lets say £1000.00, lets say it saves £150.00 per year, now let put that £1000 in TSB on high interest at 2% £20 per interest per annum tax paid, get the maths now. It might pay to borrow the £1000 from TSB to have the valves fitted.
 
Ermintrude said:
My hoose is zoned and communal areas do get bit warm if all zones are on and all doors open but then upper floors just don't come on.
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Ermi,

I know me and you don't always see things eye to eye but you must be the next only person of this forum who understands that whole house zoning really works, it is refreshing to
see you taking the initiative to zone your house I know they are not all time zone and temp, but it would not take much to do it.

Good luck with your lower than average running costs Ermi


Tony
 
£150 is still a bit optimistic if you ask me. Using the highest average figure of 20,000kwh - 4000kwh for hot water allowance so 16,000kwh. A 10% saving say for zoning would be a fair guess I would say? So 1600kwh annually x 0.045 = £72

So, the customer pays £1000 for zoning the payback (without any allowance for price increase) is approx 13.5 years. There's also no allowance for maintenance.

larger houses yes, averages houses no in my opinion.
 
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Nostrum said:
£150 is still a bit optimistic if you ask me. Using the highest average figure of 20,000kwh - 4000kwh for hot water allowance so 16,000kwh. A 10% saving say for zoning would be a fair guess I would say? So 1600kwh annually x 0.045 = £72

So, the customer pays £1000 for zoning the payback (without any allowance for price increase) is approx 13.5 years.
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Have taken into account gas rising at 10% per year or maybe even 15% per year, who knows, this is like rolling rocks down hill and pushing them back up again, just best sticking to whatever you do now hey, that's what we have always done. I don't think Ermi has wasted his time with what he has done and he doesn't either.
 
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In bigger properties, definitely yes. Your average three bed, no, it won't pay you back.
 
Not really happy flyer, just because I don't agree with your wildly optimistic figures doesn't mean I'm a closed book. In fact quite the opposite. How though, do you expect to give your customers honest and accurate advice if the figures don't stack up? Do you expect them (or us) to believe you just because you said so? That's not how I operate, rather I like to give them some solid figures to dwell on and decide whether its want they want or not.

Simple zoning doesn't work for other reasons, for example zoning bedrooms independently to living space is fine until you have children that go to bed at 6-7-8pm. Most wouldn't put the kids to bed in a cold room to save a few quid, you might?

complicated zoning costs a fortune and I still don't see the benefits as a retro fit with un insulated intermediate floors, losing heat from downstairs to upstairs, educating the customers to close all the doors etc most don't even turn the lights off when they leave a room!
 
Nostrum said:
Not really happy flyer, just because I don't agree with your wildly optimistic figures doesn't mean I'm a closed book. In fact quite the opposite. How though, do you expect to give your customers honest and accurate advice if the figures don't stack up? Do you expect them (or us) to believe you just because you said so? That's not how I operate, rather I like to give them some solid figures to dwell on and decide whether its want they want or not.

Simple zoning doesn't work for other reasons, for example zoning bedrooms independently to living space is fine until you have children that go to bed at 6-7-8pm. Most wouldn't put the kids to bed in a cold room to save a few quid, you might?

complicated zoning costs a fortune and I still don't see the benefits as a retro fit with un insulated intermediate floors, losing heat from downstairs to upstairs, educating the customers to close all the doors etc most don't even turn the lights off when they leave a room!
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Nostrum,

After all this above I am beat and whacked, my head hurts, Churchill said " you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time" with that little well known gem I rest my my case, I will go with you for now, heating controls if they be temp or time & temp will never ever catch on, not worth a toss, is that better, I am a Nostrum convert, I have seen the light, just let it all hang out, peace man, use as much energy as you like, someone else will always find more, they always do....but not shale gas we don't like that one.

Wonder if I can convert Ermi, take all that zoning tosh out he installed, wonder where he got that idea from, college maybe, reading to many books and glossy magazine off plumbing trade counters. :aureola:
 
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happyflyer said:
Ermi,

I know me and you don't always see things eye to eye but you must be the next only person of this forum who understands that whole house zoning really works, it is refreshing to
see you taking the initiative to zone your house I know they are not all time zone and temp, but it would not take much to do it.

Good luck with your lower than average running costs Ermi


Tony
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All my zones are time and temp with Myson mprtrf controllers in almost every room. Downstairs loo is on same ufh as kitchen tho. It's expensive to do £300 per room ish excluding labour
 
Ermintrude said:
All my zones are time and temp with Myson mprtrf controllers in almost every room. Downstairs loo is on same ufh as kitchen tho. It's expensive to do £300 per room ish excluding labour
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Now you have done it in Ermi these guys will believe you rather than me but £300 a zone, never, I wouldn't like you to come and work for me, your lunch breaks are longer than the working day, I suppose you are good, but not fast yet, that will come with practice, still keep plunging at the energy conservation, its only energy conversation on here.
 
happyflyer said:
Now you have done it in Ermi these guys will believe you rather than me but £300 a zone, never, I wouldn't like you to come and work for me, your lunch breaks are longer than the working day, I suppose you are good, but not fast yet, that will come with practice, still keep plunging at the energy conservation, its only energy conversation on here.
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Dear Mr Happyflyer, chill out. A lot of us don't agree with you accept it and move on darling.
 
Now I am being bullied and I have ever right to put my point across as forcefully as you and you accept mine point of view you are not on your own with your slant on
the none sensible use of a finite resource, energy.
 
It's not my intention to bully anyone! If you feel bullied by me I am sorry for making you feel that way. You are obviously a knowledgable engineer, but I this case I don't fully agree with you.
 
happyflyer said:
Now I am being bullied and I have ever right to put my point across as forcefully as you and you accept mine point of view you are not on your own with your slant on
the none sensible use of a finite resource, energy.
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Everybody has a right to an opinion on the forum imho. However nobody has to accept anyone's opinion. A discussion about people's different views is good and having read this thread I think saying that you are being bullied is wrong, people just don't agree with you. Doesn't make them right or you right, it's just life. If everybody agreed with each other it would be a really boring world.
 
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