Viessmann Vitodens 200-W B2HA heating issue

[kgfx_5]

Maybe the boiler has been range rated to 20kw (40%) since installation??.

No, I just did it to check as suggested. Unfortunately, even when I fully opened all my tado TRVs, boiler didn’t fire up at all while being on 40%. I just don’t get why… The demand is clearly there, and it fires up when I do this on 100% power. Maybe 20 kw is not enough for the boiler to fire up? Sounds a little bit stupid.
Forget it, heating curve changed when I changed rate to default 1.4, and 1.4 means 37 C flow when it is 10 C outside. This thing never showed such temperatures.
I guess maybe I should connect my tado thermostat back. At least it allowed me to heat my house.

 

[gpbeck]

Maybe the boiler has been range rated to 20kw (40%) since installation??.

Well with a minimum of 10kW that would be a sin!

 

[John.g]

I guess maybe I should connect my tado thermostat back. At least it allowed me to heat my house.

Does the thermostat control a number of zones or are there a number of them?.

Still a bit surprised the boiler doesn't seem to be able to get away, 10 minutes anticycle with the circ pump circulating through the LLH should knock the flow/return temps well down one would think, have you noted them towards the end of the anticycle time?

 

[kgfx_5]

Does the thermostat control a number of zones or are there a number of them?.

Still a bit surprised the boiler doesn't seem to be able to get away, 10 minutes anticycle with the circ pump circulating through the LLH should knock the flow/return temps well down one would think, have you noted them towards the end of the anticycle time?

In tado system, as far as I understand, every TRV has the ability to call for heat via so - called “extension kit” that connects directly to the boiler. So every TRV is essentially a thermostat. Yes, I have several rooms as “Zones” in tado.

Technically, my boiler is old enough it still supports KM-Bus, to in theory Tado should be able to modulate it. In practice however, tado struggled. I will speak with their support one more time, maybe they could suggest something.

Regarding flow-return temperatures, those are -
~25-28 C in the end, boiler’s pump is working whole time. Flow and return temperatures are the same, maybe 1 C difference. And it just keeps circulating that 28 C water through radiators. But it won’t fire up until I set a heating curve very - very high. I imagined WC should modulate a temperature set by heating curve and provide it constantly to the system, like if it is +10 outside and curve is set to 1.4, in a perfect world boiler should fire up and modulate itself so it can provide stable 37 C to the system until outside temp will change?

 

[John.g]

That's strange, normally once the boiler is enabled at SP-5C and the anticycle time has elapsed then the boiler will refire.

 

[gmartine]

Have you calibrated and offset the Tado TRV temps?

Might not make much difference but they are obviously reacting to the nearby radiator air temperature and not necessarily the actual room temp.

 

[kgfx_5]

Have you calibrated and offset the Tado TRV temps?

Might not make much difference but they are obviously reacting to the nearby radiator air temperature and not necessarily the actual room temp.

Yes, long time ago. There is no big difference surprisingly, less than 0.5 C

 

[John.g]

Right now, for example, I see the picture of boiler that turned off burner and for whatever reason temperature doesn’t drop fast, so this time it managed to heat something. But, difference between flow and return on LLH is 2 C. While there are still 5 radiators open, not including UHF and other stuff.

The temperatures should drop rapidly if both pumps are still running which they should be, we don't know what the primary pump is circulating but would think its quite high.
You can derive what the secondary Wilo pump is pumping from the following info.

Get the pump model and pump head
See where the setting knob is pointing to, it will be either to C1,C2, C3, or to the right of C3 or to the left of C1, but don't touch it.
Watch the Wilo while its starting up and you will see the set head flashing for a few seconds and then reverting to showing the power in watts W,make a note of this and the watts W and post same and the flowrate can then be read off the pump curves, might reveal something and will certainly be handy for showing the flowrates with different heating combinations.

 

[John.g]

Is the secondary pump installed correctly, the boiler circ pump is pumping into the top right primary pipe and returning through the bottom right primary pipe via the secondary pump, thought the secondary might be pumping into the bottom left secondary but maybe not?.

 

[John.g]

Is the secondary pump installed correctly, the boiler circ pump is pumping into the top right primary pipe and returning through the bottom right primary pipe via the secondary pump, thought the secondary might be pumping into the bottom left secondary but maybe not?.

Or pumping from the top (left) secondary pipe since the boiler pump will more than likely be pumping through its own heat exchanger.

 

[kgfx_5]

You can derive what the secondary Wilo pump is pumping from the following info.

External heating circuit pump is always set to 40 W power, never seen it to change. Boiler can and does turn it off when there is a need for DHW, but in any other time it is turned on.

Is the secondary pump installed correctly

The Wilo pump on this picture is not a heating circuit pump as far as I get it. If i remember correctly, this pump helps the return flow back into the boiler. The main heating pump can be seen on the last picture. I would guess that all pumps do work as intended, because sometimes boiler works and heats the house correctly?

 

[John.g]

Does this mean that all the flow of water through the boiler is via this pump, it showed 15W in one picture, if so then we can derive the boiler flow if you provide the info, above.

 

[kgfx_5]

Does this mean that all the flow of water through the boiler is via this pump, it showed 15W in one picture, if so then we can derive the boiler flow if you provide the info, above.

I think there is this pump + own boiler's internal pump?

 

[John.g]

The reason I'm labouring the point a bit is that I feel the boiler should run for more than 11 secs if the flowrate through it is - 35LPM and I can derive that as long as the discharge from that Wilo pump goes straight into the boiler return, I can't see quite clearly if there is another T above it before the boiler, so just look up that info and we can see exactly what it's pumping.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Should be a sticker on the top at the back left can you take a pic of that plz as I’m sure there isn’t a pump inside the boiler just a heat only

 

[John.g]

Have a look at the attachment to see if pipe and the other Wilo is teed into the boiler return.

 

[gmartine]

@SC. I looked it up at the time and it came up as a system boiler.

7571049

7571049 Vitodens 200-W B2HA 49kW System Boiler

viessmanndirect.co.uk

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is that with an external pump set as I don’t know if one (42kw) with an internal set ?

 

[kgfx_5]

Should be a sticker on the top at the back left can you take a pic of that plz as I’m sure there isn’t a pump inside the boiler just a heat only

Attached.

Have a look at the attachment to see if pipe and the other Wilo is teed into the boiler return.

Attaching photo. This pump is set on c2, 15 W.

——
I appreciate Your help, guys. Thank you.

 

[kgfx_5]

Is that with an external pump set as I don’t know if one (42kw) with an internal set ?

I am guessing that my boiler has internal pump based on the information shown in ViCare app. I could be wrong.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

could be the external as its wired to the boiler

 

[John.g]

Attached.

Attaching photo. This pump is set on c2, 15 W.

——
I appreciate Your help, guys. Thank you.

Thanks,
The other Wilo is feeding into the boiler return as well so looks like the main (a external) pump.
Can you post a photo of this one as well please with the same info re type, head etc and its setting and power.

 

[kgfx_5]

Thanks,
The other Wilo is feeding into the boiler return as well so looks like the main (a external) pump.
Can you post a photo of this one as well please with the same info re type, head etc and its setting and power.

You mean a pump that is in lower left corner of the picture? This is a DHW pump. It turns on when there is a need to fill and heat hot water cylinder.

 

[John.g]

When DHWP off then all the water into the boiler flows via the 4M Wilo pump, I can't find a curve for the C2 setting but it looks very much as if the flowrate isn't much more than 1 m3/hr, next time its running can you turn the setting knob to the right until its flashing say 2M then stop and read off the power, W, adjust it then until the power is the same as it was on C2, note the head and return it to C2, I have the pump curves for the CP (constant pressure) settings.

 

[John.g]

Should have added also turn the setting knob briefly fully clockwise and read off the power before returning it to C2.

 

[kgfx_5]

When DHWP off then all the water into the boiler flows via the 4M Wilo pump, I can't find a curve for the C2 setting but it looks very much as if the flowrate isn't much more than 1 m3/hr, next time its running can you turn the setting knob to the right until its flashing say 2M then stop and read off the power, W, adjust it then until the power is the same as it was on C2, note the head and return it to C2, I have the pump curves for the CP (constant pressure) settings.

Max flow rate of this pump is 2.7 m3/h, according to manufacturer.. On 2 m. it shows 16 W. When turned fully to the right (4 M.) it shows 20 W.

 

[John.g]

This should mean IMO that the flowrate through the boiler is 1.0 m3/hr, 16.7LPM, so if the boiler has its own internal pump capable of pumping far more, the flowrate is being throttled/controlled by this relatively small pump, running the pump on full CP mode (knob fully right) or setting it to C3 should give ~ 1.4m3/hr at 4M head & 20W which may help the boiler fire up for longer than 11 secs and not reach SP+5C for a few minutes depending on the heating load.
Post 26 showed a dT of , 53-38, 15C, if the primary flowrate is consistent at 1m3/hr, 16.7LPM, then the boiler output was 17.5kw but if it was only just above minimum of say 12kw then the flowrate was only 11.5LPM?.
Another way of checking the primry flowrate is to take the dT and read off the % firing like in post 30 where 19% was presumably the boiler output then, 9.3kw??.
Also, if 16.7LPM is the flowrate through the boiler then the output at a dT of 20C is only 23.3kw, I think the max design flowrate through boilers is based on this 20C dT which means one should be able to circulate 35.1LPM, 2.1m3/hr.

What exactly I wonder is the role of the LLH in your setup as I thought that the primary side dealt with the heat source and the secondary side with the heating demand, the output from the boiler flow is teed off to the heating before the primary (as well as feeding it).
Are there any (other pumps) associated (apart from the UFH manifold pump) with the LLH secondary side?,

 

[kgfx_5]

Are there any (other pumps) associated (apart from the UFH manifold pump) with the LLH secondary side?,

Yes, you can see it in the last picture out of 4. It pumps hot water from the boiler to the system. It is a 40 W max and was always set to 40 W. Here is a sticker. This pump turns off only when DHW pump (lower left) is turned on to add water to cylinder. I have also tried to upload a short video of my system, maybe it would make it easier to understand.

 

[John.g]

Making a bit of sense now.
Looks as if the secondary circulation is way higher than the primary circulation, if you want to get the maximum boiler flowrate then I can't see that being achieved with that 4M pump.
Another test or two if you don't mind.
Confirm 6M pump on C3, if so and because the pump is running at max power it could be circulating anywhere between 1m3/hr and (very unlikely) up to 3m3/hr so can you turn the selector knob clockwise to the right of C3 and stop a few times until you get ~ 30/35 watts, then read off the head and the watts and the flowrate can again be derived, switch it back to C3?? when finished.

Have you confirmed that you have a system boiler with a internal pump?.

 

[kgfx_5]

Have you confirmed that you have a system boiler with a internal pump?

I just looked through old emails, where I have spoken with a salesman, and I have found that he actually wrote “This boiler does not have circulation pump”. Well..

—

3 M is 29 W
3.3 M is 34 W

 

[John.g]

You are probably circulating/recirculating~ 1.7m3/hr.

Why dont you swap the 6M DHW pump with the 4M (if flange distances same), PDHW generally raises the boiler temp to 80C and the 4M pump may/should be quite adequate when circulating through the cylinder coil?, maybe they were installed incorrectly originally?

I would suggest putting the 4m on C3 or maybe max CP setting for now, whichever uses highest power.

 

[kgfx_5]

You are probably circulating/recirculating~ 1.7m3/hr.

Why dont you swap the 6M DHW pump with the 4M (if flange distances same), PDHW generally raises the boiler temp to 80C and the 4M pump may/should be quite adequate when circulating through the cylinder coil?, maybe they were installed incorrectly originally?

I would suggest putting the 4m on C3 or maybe max CP setting for now, whichever uses highest power.

I will call my plumber tomorrow, I don’t think this is a job to diy. Thank you. Do you think it can help with a lower flow temperatures, sub 50C I mean? Or is this a problem because of bad modulation, not flow?

 

[John.g]

It's a combination of both, the boiler fires at a far greater output than its minimum output, yours may be say 30kw, with your present flowrate of 16.7LPM the dT through the boiler will be 25.7C the boiler temp at fireplace is 28/30Csay30C so the flow temp will be 55.7C if the SP temp is 56C then the boiler will stay firing until it reaches 61C. If the flowrate is/can be increased to say 22LPM then the dT will be 19.5C and the flow temp will be 49.5C so the SP can be reduced to 50C, the boiler run time then depends on how fast it modulates to its minimum output and tha actual heating load. As I stared somewhere above you might be able to see the boiler % power on startup in one of the displays above.

 

[John.g]

I will call my plumber tomorrow, I don’t think this is a job to diy. Thank you. Do you think it can help with a lower flow temperatures, sub 50C I mean? Or is this a problem because of bad modulation, not flow?

You should get a fairly substantial increase in boiler flow if you change the 4M pump to C3 or turn the control knob fully clockwise.

 

[John.g]

Does the arrowed pipe supply the HW cylinder coil?.