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Discuss UFH BUFFER TANK SELECTION (no rads) in the Water Underfloor Heating Installations area at PlumbersForums.net

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
Good day all,
I would like to get some advise and perhaps the solution to the issues with my UFH system.
We did install UFH in an entire house and got rid of all radiators.
The system is 14 port manifold (only 12 are in use) feeding 7 zones.
Total room area is 97 m2, with the biggest zone being 37 m2 (uses 4 ports).
The volume of the system is approximately 35 litres of water. The systems output around 7.3 kW (as per drawings). System pressure is 2.4 Bar.
The system is fed by the Vaillant Ecotec 838 (reason for such high end boiler is to feed two showers at the time), with direct loop (feed and return).
The Heating Output temperature is set to 60C.
The manifold temperature is set to 50C.
The Delta T between each zone’s Flow and Return is set to 8 – 10 C dT.
The heating kicks in in the morning around 5AM and lasts until around 9AM. Then it kicks in again around 3PM and goes until 9PM (not all zones work in the same time).
Thermostats in the rooms are set between 19C and 21C, depending on the rooms.
The issues what I have are:
1. While there is “call for heat” the boiler is always on, without having a chance for performing “condensing”, until it goes into cooling (possibly cycling?) mode.
2. While boiler is in the mentioned “cycling mode” the temperature can drop down below 30 degrees C and be like that for 20 odd minutes.
3. The consumption of the gas, only for the heating, was initially around £5 per day. This got reduced down to £3-50 (equals to about 100 kW of gas daily) by turning the heating output from AUTO to 10 kW. I did try to run it on 7 kW option, but it does not produce enough heat for the all 7 zones. The Flow temperature can only be achieved of 26C on that setting. To be honest, even 10 kW is not enough to keep the all 7 zones at 50C Flow, but I am sacrificing some rooms to the others.
I am baffled. What we were sold is the “efficient” underfloor heating system. Which suppose to be far more better than ordinary CH system. While we had the central heating in place, even with all the radiators running, the consumption was nowhere near this high (measuring in the kWh).
The supplier could not suggest anything, other than to speak to the Vaillant. After speaking to Vaillant nothing was achieved either.
Reading through the forums some people suggest to install buffer tank. But no further advise is there on what exactly is required. Perhaps there is a “formula” on what size tank is required?
Please could you advise the solutions to bring at least the running costs down and bring the efficiency of the boiler, as from my understanding having it constantly running with dT of only 10C – 12C won’t do any good in the long term, never mind constant cycling.
Many thanks for reading the above.
 

ShaunCorbs

Staff member
S. Mod
Plumber
Gas Engineer
Messages
29,463
Solutions
1
What’s your floor covering ?
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
#ShaunCorbs
The Upstairs bedrooms are 14mm Bamboo, UFH is installed within grooved chip floorboards (22mm).
Ground floor - all pipes are screeded; living room has 14mm Bamboo, other rooms porcelain tiles.
 

Sparkgap

Messages
350
I take it you have a mixing manifold with its own pump? Surprised at 50C flow as I would think this was a bit high for UFH but I am assuming this is required minimum flow temp into the manifold setup. I think your problem is with the small amount of water in the system: by fitting a buffer tank there will be more water to absorb fluctuations in temp from the boiler and it won't be short cycling so much. I didn't notice any minimum system volume requirement in the manual but this seems like the main problem. You might also want to check the settings for the burner cycling.
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
I take it you have a mixing manifold with its own pump? Surprised at 50C flow as I would think this was a bit high for UFH but I am assuming this is required minimum flow temp into the manifold setup. I think your problem is with the small amount of water in the system: by fitting a buffer tank there will be more water to absorb fluctuations in temp from the boiler and it won't be short cycling so much. I didn't notice any minimum system volume requirement in the manual but this seems like the main problem. You might also want to check the settings for the burner cycling.
Good morning,
Thank you for your reply.
This is correct, there is a mixing manifold with pump (I am attaching photo).
Would you be able to advise on how to specify the sizing (volume) of the buffer tank?
I have made some research on them in the past and there are so many different ones available on the market.
 

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Ric2013

Plumber
Messages
3,483
Hang on.

UFH is efficient in that it makes you feel warmer than with radiators at the same room temperature. You save energy by running a lower room temperature. Trouble is we get get fixated on 'comfort temperatures' which are really nothing to do with anything and building services engineers moved on to the concept of 'percentage of people dissatisfied' (Fanger) - What Is PMV? What Is PPD? Basics of Thermal Comfort | SimScale - https://www.simscale.com/blog/2019/09/what-is-pmv-ppd/ - many years ago. If you keep the same temperatures, you house will probably lose more heat as the rooms are now more uniformly warm and will be losing more heat to the outside). Or they should be... if you are running a timber floor UFH system intermittently for a good part of the day, that may be well and good, but a screed system really needs to be on more or less constantly (and then you start dropping the temperatures to the minimum you find acceptable).

The other advantage is that the system SHOULD allow your boiler to run in condensing mode most of the time. But it does this by needing cooler water than radiators do. If for some reason you still have to run your boiler at 60°C and then blend down, this might be the problem. Your floor surface temperatures should not be above 27°C or so with the heating running, and a 50°C manifold temperature seems high if you want the floor surface to remain below 27. It seems high for a suspended floor type, and it certainly seems high for a screeded floor type. The idea is that you set the manifold temperature to the temperature that does not cause the floors to overheat even if run constantly. You could drop the temperature further if you find that the rooms start to overheat and switch off on their zone thermostats even in cold weather, though this will of course increase the time required to heat up a room from cold.

Agree with the idea of the buffer, but wondering whether the boiler couldn't be range-rated on the heating side by a gas-safe installer, or if all you have is the setting you are are already adjusting. It seems odd that 7-10 kW is not enough for the area you mention. It is, of course, worth noting that an UFH system will need a good input at startup from cold as the mixing valve on the manifold takes virtually all the water from the flow. But if it gets 26°C, that's shouldn't be a problem as the system temperature ought to increase progessively once the return water temperature ramps up.

Why, incidentally, run the upstairs in grooved chipboard? I'd really rather have seen aluminium spreader plates. Is the chipboard specially designed to diffuse the heat? If not, then it sounds a bit naff.
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
Good day all,
I would like to get some advise and perhaps the solution to the issues with my UFH system.
We did install UFH in an entire house and got rid of all radiators.
The system is 14 port manifold (only 12 are in use) feeding 7 zones.
Total room area is 97 m2, with the biggest zone being 37 m2 (uses 4 ports).
The volume of the system is approximately 35 litres of water. The systems output around 7.3 kW (as per drawings). System pressure is 2.4 Bar.
The system is fed by the Vaillant Ecotec 838 (reason for such high end boiler is to feed two showers at the time), with direct loop (feed and return).
The Heating Output temperature is set to 60C.
The manifold temperature is set to 50C.
The Delta T between each zone’s Flow and Return is set to 8 – 10 C dT.
The heating kicks in in the morning around 5AM and lasts until around 9AM. Then it kicks in again around 3PM and goes until 9PM (not all zones work in the same time).
Thermostats in the rooms are set between 19C and 21C, depending on the rooms.
The issues what I have are:
1. While there is “call for heat” the boiler is always on, without having a chance for performing “condensing”, until it goes into cooling (possibly cycling?) mode.
2. While boiler is in the mentioned “cycling mode” the temperature can drop down below 30 degrees C and be like that for 20 odd minutes.
3. The consumption of the gas, only for the heating, was initially around £5 per day. This got reduced down to £3-50 (equals to about 100 kW of gas daily) by turning the heating output from AUTO to 10 kW. I did try to run it on 7 kW option, but it does not produce enough heat for the all 7 zones. The Flow temperature can only be achieved of 26C on that setting. To be honest, even 10 kW is not enough to keep the all 7 zones at 50C Flow, but I am sacrificing some rooms to the others.
I am baffled. What we were sold is the “efficient” underfloor heating system. Which suppose to be far more better than ordinary CH system. While we had the central heating in place, even with all the radiators running, the consumption was nowhere near this high (measuring in the kWh).
The supplier could not suggest anything, other than to speak to the Vaillant. After speaking to Vaillant nothing was achieved either.
Reading through the forums some people suggest to install buffer tank. But no further advise is there on what exactly is required. Perhaps there is a “formula” on what size tank is required?
Please could you advise the solutions to bring at least the running costs down and bring the efficiency of the boiler, as from my understanding having it constantly running with dT of only 10C – 12C won’t do any good in the long term, never mind constant cycling.
Many thanks for reading the above.
You really IMO shouldn't need a buffer with a modulating boiler even if at times it must cycle when its minimum output (~ 7kw) is greater than the UFH demand.
Unfortunately, the Vaillants don't seem to take too kindly to cycling not helped by their need to fire at ~70%
output for up to 60 secs on ignition irrespective of your range rating.
You might just check a few parameters on your boiler, even though all probably set to default values.
d.001 pump overrun time.
d.002 anticycle time
d.014 pump speed.
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
Thank you Ric2013 for your response.

the system SHOULD allow your boiler to run in condensing mode most of the time
But this is where the problem is. The dT of flow and return (at the boiler side) are only around 10C. This is dictated by the dT of the Flow and Return of the zones, which should be around 8C, according to the UFH supplier. According to the boiler manual the "condensing" starts when the set T is around 75C and return is much less (dT should be minimum of 20C?).

Why, incidentally, run the upstairs in grooved chipboard
This is how it was specified by the supplier.
I am attaching some screenshots of their drawing, to ease the understanding.
 

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dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
You really IMO shouldn't need a buffer with a modulating boiler even if at times it must cycle when its minimum output (~ 7kw) is greater than the UFH demand.
Unfortunately, the Vaillants don't seem to take too kindly to cycling not helped by their need to fire at ~70%
output for up to 60 secs on ignition irrespective of your range rating.
You might just check a few parameters on your boiler, even though all probably set to default values.
d.001 pump overrun time.
d.002 anticycle time
d.014 pump speed.
Hi John.g
Thank you for your message.
Here are the parameters:
d.001 5 minutes
d.002 20 minutes
d.014 speed target AUTO
 

Ric2013

Plumber
Messages
3,483
Thank you Ric2013 for your response.


But this is where the problem is. The dT of flow and return (at the boiler side) are only around 10C. This is dictated by the dT of the Flow and Return of the zones, which should be around 8C, according to the UFH supplier. According to the boiler manual the "condensing" starts when the set T is around 75C and return is much less (dT should be minimum of 20C?).
I wish installers would bother to explain things to their customers! The mixing valve on the manifold will start by taking full hot water and returning the cold to the boiler. As the set temperature, in your case 50°C (which I've said seems high, but that's for you to check), is exceeded, the mixing valve will mix water from the return from the zones and the flow from the boiler to keep the flow to the zones at 50. The water taken from the boiler flow should be replaced by an equal quantity of UFH zone return water (which, as you say has been set to is 8° below the flow, but bear in mind if you set a dT at a 50°C flow, the dT will drop as the flow drops due to decreased output at lower temperatures). So the return to the boiler will be around 42°C when the flow into the UFH zones is 50°C.

Obviously, when the UFH is running at a lower temperature (at start-up), then there won't be the same Dt across the zones, and thus across the boiler. The dT across the boiler may (or may not) be important for the boiler to be able to regulate itself, but doesn't matter from a condensing point of view. The actual condensing process occurs when the heat exchanger is below 55°C. This is when condensing starts - when the return is at 54 or below and regardless of Dt. But if the return were at 42, that would be even better. Ideally, if the boiler can still heat your DHW properly, and is designed to be run this way, I'd be wanting the boiler to run at 50F/42R. You'd then have the entire heat exchanger dripping with condensation and you'd be extracting the most heat possible from your gas. The 20 degree 'rule' was to allow boilers to run 70/50 when connected to radiator systems - you may be able to go better than that.

This is how it was specified by the supplier.
I am attaching some screenshots of their drawing, to ease the understanding.
Fair enough then. Spreader plates aren't massively effective. I suppose they increase the heat output per sq m a bit, but not sure by how much.
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
Hi John.g
Thank you for your message.
Here are the parameters:
d.001 5 minutes
d.002 20 minutes
d.014 speed target AUTO

They look like the default settings.
d.002 setting of 20 minutes results in a actual anti cycle time of 6 minutes based on a your boiler target temperature of 60C (look up table).
The pump auto setting looking at the boiler/pump characteristic seem to indicate that the minimum flowrate is 500LPH or 8.3LPM at 7kw output which means a deltaT of 12C and ~ 1300LPH or 22LPM at 38kw giving a deltaT of 25C. This will obviously only apply to a UFH (or rad) system that is directly fed from the boiler or where the boiler flow temp and the UFH mixed flow temp are equal which they arn't.
You say that the boiler deltaT is only 10C, by my calcs it should be ~ 19C and give a very economical return temp of 41C (bags of condensing) and if it actually is 10c then the boiler internal (or external)by pass, or is operating, but a boiler return of 50C still is quite OK.
The reason that the boiler isn't able to get away on the first refiring after a anti cycle time of 6 minutes may be because the boiler flow rate is too low initially but will then increase as the ufh temperatures fall causing the boiler & ufh flows to increase.
Changing the pump mode to setting 3 or 4 may help but at the expense of a lower deltaT.

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John.g

Messages
2,497
Should also ask what is the total of the manifold flow tube rates, if the deltaT is known then quite easy to calculate the heat requirement.
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
Just read through your first post again.

You say that with the boiler output range rated to 7kw that the flow temperature does not exceed 26C,
Is the boiler running continuously during this period or cycling and is the boiler flow temp 60C.

At 10kw range rating, 50C still cannot be achieved, again is the boiler running continuously during this period or cycling and is the boiler flow temperature 60C.

Your energy consumption is ~ 100kwh for a 10 hour heating day which would indicate that the average boiler output is 10kw and is running continuously?

You also say the system volume is ~ 35 litres, this would indicate that the 816 meters of pipework is 12MM.

So, what exactly is the problem as the 100kwh would indicate that the UFH is giving this output and if this seems excessive then that's a different problem? If the boiler is running continuously then the return temp is between 42C and 50C which is quite acceptable.
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
Hello,
Many thanks for everyone's replies and inputs in this post.
I would like to make it a little more clearer as it seems that the "intro" does not reveal the actual question.
First of all, I do not complain regarding the heat from the system - it works great.
It works great, but at very high expense. This is where my problem is.
When we moved in into the property (January 20) we were running central heating for 24/7, with radiators being installed in every room. The gas consumption was nowhere near as high (referring to the meter readings, not the rates) as it is now with UFH which was installed during the summer last year. And the house was nowhere near insulated as it is now.
So I am looking for the solution to reduce the gas consumption.
I know for instance that the Air/Water Heat source pumps are using storage tank to contain the heated water.
So why there is no option for the buffer tank with Combi system???
I think that the problem is, like Sparkgap mentioned, that there is not enough volume of water in the system.
I think by having the tank installed the running time of boiler will be reduced drastically. What I mean is that currently boiler heats up very small amount of water which cycles between boiler and mixing manifold (approx 30 meters of combined length of 27mm copper) plus a volume of manifold. And it burns gas all this time, keeping it heated.
But if to put, say, 100 litres tank between the system and set the tank temperature to, say, 75C, and ask boiler to reheat it once temperature of the tank will drop below, say, 50C. With the mixing valve set to 50C there would be "reserved" temperature of 25C in the whole volume of the tank. How long would it take to get it cooled down to the 50C? 30 minutes? 1 Hour? I do not know how to calculate this, so only guessing. But anyway, the boiler would kick in maybe once or twice per hour for smaller period of time?
Please let me know your thoughts.
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
This my view on it.
Assume a 100 litre buffer tank that the boiler heats from 50C to 75C and the cuts out until the temperature falls to 50C again. Also assume that the boiler is range rated to 30kw, (near its max output).
The heating demand is 10kwh/hr or 100kwh/10hr day.
In falling from 75C to 50c the buffer will give up, 100*25/860, 2.91kwh which will last for 2.91/10*60, 17.46 minutes, the boiler will then fire at 30kw, 10kw will be required to supply the 10kw heating load so the other 20kw will heat 100 litres from 50C to 75c in 2.91/20*60, 8.73 minutes and then cut out. So the boiler will fire (at 30kw) for 8.73 minutes in every 26.19 minutes or a firing cycle of 8.73/26.19*100, 33.3%. or 30*33.3%,10kw, exactly the same as firing the boiler continuously at 10kw and not as economical due to cycling and the (admittedly small) cylinder losses. So in one case the boiler is firing 100% of the time and in the (buffer) case only 33% of the time but no advantage whatsoever.
The only need or advantage of a buffer is to avoid more rapid cycling if the heat demand is substantially lower than the minimum output of the boiler.
 
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dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
This my view on it.
Thank you John.g for you response.
When we mention 10 kWh of heating demand, I understand that this is the ALL zones are taken in the account.
Most of the times only the upstairs and the bathroom are on, occasionally the kitchen.
If to assume that the drawing calculations are about correct, then for the bedrooms there is approx 2kWh of heat being demanded.
Could you please advise, if the boiler output is set to 10kWh, but the demand is only 2kWh, doesn't this confuse the boiler and throws it into cycle?
And if that is the case how could we overcome this?
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
the boiler will then fire at 30kw, 10kw will be required to supply the 10kw heating load so the other 20kw will heat 100 litres
I thought that the setup would be different there? Boiler will heat the tank and then manifold pump will distribute the water between tank and manifold. And like I've mentioned in my previous reply, most of the time there is around 2 - 3 kWh being demanded. Wouldn't this help with situation?
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
Thank you John.g for you response.
When we mention 10 kWh of heating demand, I understand that this is the ALL zones are taken in the account.
Most of the times only the upstairs and the bathroom are on, occasionally the kitchen.
If to assume that the drawing calculations are about correct, then for the bedrooms there is approx 2kWh of heat being demanded.
Could you please advise, if the boiler output is set to 10kWh, but the demand is only 2kWh, doesn't this confuse the boiler and throws it into cycle?
And if that is the case how could we overcome this?
A 2kw load with the boiler range rated to 10kw gives a 20% firing cycle but sadly the Vaillant is virtually unable to deal with this without very long anticycle times so a a 100 litre buffer in this case would be great.
Wont go through the dreary calcs again but the buffer will supply 2kw for 87.4 minutes and the boiler will then fire (at 10kw) for 21.8 minutes giving a total cycle time of 109.1 minutes (20% firing cycle).
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
I thought that the setup would be different there? Boiler will heat the tank and then manifold pump will distribute the water between tank and manifold. And like I've mentioned in my previous reply, most of the time there is around 2 - 3 kWh being demanded. Wouldn't this help with situation?

Don't know if this is the info you're looking for or not.

The buffer will always supply the UFH heat demand whether the boiler is firing or not, when it does fire to recharge the buffer, the buffer is still supplying the UFH heat demand so the boiler must both recharge the buffer and at the same time supply the constant heat "loss" from the buffer. If the UFH heat demand is 2kw and the boiler output is limited to 10kw then there is 8kw net (10-2) available to recharge the buffer.
If the UFH heat demand suddenly increased to 10kw then the buffer would never increase in temperature.
 

Chuck

Esteemed
Messages
2,230
First of all, I do not complain regarding the heat from the system - it works great.
It works great, but at very high expense. This is where my problem is.
When we moved in into the property (January 20) we were running central heating for 24/7, with radiators being installed in every room. The gas consumption was nowhere near as high (referring to the meter readings, not the rates) as it is now with UFH which was installed during the summer last year. And the house was nowhere near insulated as it is now.
So I am looking for the solution to reduce the gas consumption.
The average temperature (in London) in January 2020 was 7°C and for October 2021 it was 13°C. So, other things being equal, I'd expect the heating element of your gas bill for Jan 2020 to be roughly double what is was in Oct 2021 assuming you like your living quarters to be at an average temperature of around 20°C.

Now, if you are saying that you've burned through more gas in Oct 2021 than in Jan 2020 I doubt that short cycling and/or tweaking flow temperatures are going to provide an answer. If you dump a certain number of kW hours per day inside the thermal envelope of a house you'll get roughly the same average temperature regardless of the short-term (hour to hour) time variation due to different choices of programming for the boiler and thermostats.

Whenever I encounter anomalously high fuel bills, the first thing I consider is the possibility a leaky hot water system. You can lose hundreds of kW hours a day without even noticing it by allowing hot water to run down the drain. High-flow power showers can also use a remarkably large amount of gas and their usage patterns need to be considered.

Next on my list is ground floor UFH. The layer(s) the coils sit on needs to be a really good insulator or a lot of the heat diffuses downwards into the ground. If I've understood the description above, there seems to be a thick layer of wooden flooring above the UFH coils with the result that they need to be operated with a flow temperature of 50°C, which seems very high to me and suggests that a lot of heat must be being lost downwards.

So, perhaps @dmitripopov1984 could summarise the key information about the ground floor UFH construction and operating temperatures? I'd like to understand how much heat the coils are absorbing and where this heat is ending up.
 
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John.g

Messages
2,497
Definitely, heat would appear to be leaking away somewhere, I have a 3 bed (+converted Attic bed) and I am averaging 0ver the past few weeks, 5 ltrs/day of Kerosesne ~ 53kwh/day, allowing say 75% SE oil boiler then my house (+ very small HW usage) is comfortable with heat input of ~ 40kwh/day with heating enabled 15hrs/day, downstairs kept at 20/22c and upstairs 16/18C.
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
summarise the key information about the ground floor UFH construction and operating temperatures
Hello,
Thanks for your response.
The ground UFH construction is the one which is indicated in my previous attachment (AmbiSolo).
Operating temperatures... 21c across kids bedrooms and 18 in our bedroom.
Cannot really understand where October 2021 came from. First of all, we did not run heating in October as it was fairly warm month, secondly we do not run UFH in the lounge as we do have a woodburner installed there now, which does it's trick.
The main question is how to overcome the issues when only bedrooms are running (around 2kWh), with the boiler being set to 10kWh output.
 

dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
100*25/860
John.g, please don't mind me asking but where the figure "860" came from?
I am trying to make calculations using your formulas on which tank (volume) is better to install. There are several options available, ranging from 30 litres to 350 litres (the ones I've looked at). Personally I think to stick to 100 - 200 litre range tank.
Would you be able to advise on the choice?
Thank you in advance!
Kind regards,
Dmitri
 

John.g

Messages
2,497
Hi Dmitri, aploligies for late reply but was up very (very) late last night.

860 is a conversion factor that I've used for years to calculate power in KW based on Flow in LPM X boiler dT in degC /60/860, and to calculate energy in KWH based on cylinder volume in litres X cylinder temperature in deg.C /860 and to calculate energy required to raise raise the cylinder temperature is cylinder volume in litres X dT /860. knowing any two allows the calculation for the other. 860 is (nearly) actually 3600/4.182. SO
Power = LPM*60*dT/860 KW and
Energy = Litres*Cylinder temperature degC/860 KWH and
Energy = Litres X cylinder dT/860 KWH.

I have no hands on knowledge of buffer sizing but others on here probably have but you can get a good feel for it by calculating the volume required based on two scenarios, based on 2kw minimum power required and perhaps 7.5kw based on minimum continuous power boiler output so as above.

100 Litre Buffer (2kw required), (boiler 10kw rated.)
Buffer available energy: 100*(75-25)/860. 2.91kwh.
Buffer supply time: 2.91/2*60, 87.3 minutes.
Buffer Recharging Time: 2.91/(10-2)*60, 21.82 minutes.

100 Litre Buffer (7.5kw required), (boiler 10kw rated.)
Buffer available energy: 100*(75-25)/860. 2.91kwh.
Buffer supply time: 2.91/7.5*60, 23.28 minutes.
Buffer Recharging Time: 2.91/(10-7.5)*60, 69.84 minutes

The above supply/recharging times will be directly proportional to the buffer volume chosen.

I wouldn't rush off just yet though, remember that nearly all smart?? room temperature controllers like Evohome continually fire the boiler for as little as one minute with 6 cycles/hour so the boilers are supposed to be able to deal with this, there is probably more wear and tear but figures I saw years ago suggest that there arn't huge efficiency losses with continuous cycling, oil fired boilers spend their whole lives doing this.

I would suggest taking a few numbers off your own boiler and maybe contact Vaillant of advice.
Can't remember if you said how many cycles or off times it takes to get the boiler to fire but next time id does fire up, note flow/return temps d.001/d.002 especially in the first minutes of firing as this is where most problems occur as the boiler fires at ~ 70% of max output (despite being range rated down to 10kw or whatever) for up to 60 secs before modulating down.
What can generally happen is the the boiler dT is > 30c and the boiler stops firing for any cycle time(s).
For example if the boiler fires at 70% of 38kw, 26.6kw then to keep the dt at say 25C requires a flowrate of 26.6*860/60/25, 15.25LPM, 915 LPH and if it fires at 70% of 30kw, 21kw then the required flow rate is 21*860/60/2512.04LPM, 722 LPH, if you give the numbers to Vaillant they may suggest increasing the pump head, another problem that was posted on here is that some models trip the burner when the boiler fow temperature reachhes target (flow) temperature +2 or3C, it should be target temperature+5C to give the boiler a chance to modulate down on reaching its target temperature.
When it does go to anti cycle mode check status S.53 & S.54 which are boiler waiting times
 
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dmitripopov1984

Messages
12
Hi Dmitri, aploligies for late reply but was up very (very) late last night.
Hi John,

Thank for a such detailed response, muchly appreciated!

I also think by having the buffer installed it will give me more precise balancing of the zones. I mean the buffer will give constant temperature output, unlike boiler does (once additional zone(s) opens up the Flow temperature to manifold sometimes fluctuates in 5-10 C of the target temperature, feels like boiler is struggling to keep target temperature, or it starts cycling).

I will do some experiments / tries on my side now with your suggestions.
It's about right time now as it got colder since the weekend.
Stay safe, chat soon!
Kind regards,
Dmitri
 
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359
Jim Norf
J
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  • Question
Whoever did the underfloor has totally shafted you. Connections to manifold after pump, additional 2 port valve for control. You say it runs...
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1
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276
SimonG
SimonG
S
Try screwing the flow meters in might be all on max / fully open
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10
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506
ShaunCorbs
ShaunCorbs
T
Think I have found the issue after substantial further googling... Whilst the instructions say "For 7 day programming only Mon is displayed..."...
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1
Views
280
Tim Court
T

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