Told boiler needs a new expansion vessel along with pressure relief valve - how much should this be?

[Sarah Wykes]

Hi

We have a vaillant turbo max 824e rs combi boiler that has been serviced and we've been told that the boiler is found to be gas safe but is in need of a new expansion vessel along with a pressure relief valve.

How much should be expected to pay for this (Coventry)? I have only one quote from the guy who did the gas safety record. We were told that the boiler might need to be removed completely from the wall to have the new vessel fitted that the price could be significantly reduced if there was more headroom above the boiler so the old tank could be raised up from behind.

Sarah

 

[Harvest Fields]

Hi

We have a vaillant turbo max 824e rs combi boiler that has been serviced and we've been told that the boiler is found to be gas safe but is in need of a new expansion vessel along with a pressure relief valve.

How much should be expected to pay for this (Coventry)? I have only one quote from the guy who did the gas safety record. We were told that the boiler might need to be removed completely from the wall to have the new vessel fitted that the price could be significantly reduced if there was more headroom above the boiler so the old tank could be raised up from behind.

Sarah

Should be day rate plus parts and VAT if Registered. Is the flue vertical or horizontal? Where is the boiler located? Each engineers day rate is different though Sarah. What have you been quoted?

 

[townfanjon]

Sorry I dont know the boiler but this applys to most , if you have a horizontal flue and the vessel is at the back of the boiler yes the boiler has to come off the wall .

 

[Deleted member 32524]

fit am external one.

 

[Sharp Point]

fit am external one.

I second that, as a 15 year old boiler certainly wouldn’t like being taken off the wall and being problem free afterwards. Also the potential of needing a new flue, if it won’t move ..allowing it to come free of the elbow, and there’s the dried up flue seals.

The list could go on and on

 

[Harvest Fields]

I second that, as a 15 year old boiler certainly wouldn’t like being taken off the wall and being problem free afterwards. Also the potential of needing a new flue, if it won’t move ..allowing it to come free of the elbow, and there’s the dried up flue seals.

The list could go on and on

Only if there is space for one.

 

[Sharp Point]

Only if there is space for one.

That’s certainly true HF

 

[Sarah Wykes]

Should be day rate plus parts and VAT if Registered. Is the flue vertical or horizontal? Where is the boiler located? Each engineers day rate is different though Sarah. What have you been quoted?

We have been quoted £350-£400 and also told that if we considered fitting a new boiler the pipework we have is too small and would need to be replaced, thus would mean ripping up all of the kitchen floor. He said that the boiler is currently safe but keeps on losing pressure so will start cutting out more and we are getting the property ready to rent and obviously do not want the people renting to have problems, although it only cut out once in a blue moon when we lived there, it does seem to be losing pressure more now though.

Regards
Sarah

 

[Harvest Fields]

Any chance of some pictures of the boiler and pipework and gas meter please.

 

[Sarah Wykes]

Any chance of some pictures of the boiler and pipework and gas meter please.

I should be able to get some tomorrow

Regards
Sarah

 

[jtsplumbing]

If enough room above or flue can be removed it can be done with boiler on the wall, or if there the space fit an external tank,
But to be Blunt a 15 year old boiler and your going to be renting I would replace it, you don't want to be forever having to call someone out, that could amount to more than the cost of a new boiler, get some more quotes and go from there.

 

[DevsAd]

Hi Sarah.

Even tho' the cost of the actual exp vessel for this model is surprisingly reasonable, there is a lot of work involved in your case as said above, so that quote seems pretty reasonable.

Do you know what an external exp vessel is? Big ugly things, but if you have room somewhere to have one fitted, then it'll save having to disturb your boiler. Yours will likely not have to be as big as this one, but it gives you an idea:


Dead easy to fit (if there's room...) so will be cheaper and it will sort your issue - tho' you also need that PRV replaced.

The 'pipework too small' they referred to is almost certainly the gas supply pipe; good chance your current one is only 15mm?

 

[plumbandplumber]

I've got the same boiler, and had the same problem. Wouldn't recommend taking a 15 year old boiler off the wall, especially as the flue may be damaged and you would need to pay for another.

If you can, fit an external vessel. 30 quid for the vessel from Toolstation, plus a bit of pipe and couple of fittings. Did mine myself. Before you go down this route, sometimes although the valve on old vessel is spurting water, the diaphragm can re-seat itself if you try inflating it with system drained. Not always though. You poss wouldn't need an espansion vessel as big as the one on my photo - I may have slightly over sized. Doesn't need to be above boiler either, could poss go underneath or other place - as long as it's plumbed into the heating return pipe near the boiler.

If the rest of the boiler is fine, I would definitely get it fixed. They are one of the best boiler's made and all parts are available and easy to fix. Prices reasonable too. Much better than modern Vaillant plastic rubbish.

 

[Sarah Wykes]

Any chance of some pictures of the boiler and pipework and gas meter please.

I have attached some pphotos

 

[Harvest Fields]

Doesn’t look like much space there for an external vessel. That’s why he has said what he did. I would change the boiler. It is almost a like for like swap if you go for another Vaillant. Might need to upgrade the gas pipe at the meter though if the meter is at the front of the house and the boiler is at the back. You may not get the correct pressures. (In my opinion)

 

[Sarah Wykes]

So I wouldn't need to have flooring taken up for changing pipework?

 

[Harvest Fields]

So I wouldn't need to have flooring taken up for changing pipework?

All depends on a number of factors. Current gas pipe length and diameter, other gas appliance in property.

 

[Sarah Wykes]

There's a gas hob in the kitchen, a gas ffir ii the living room and rads throughout

 

[Harvest Fields]

You can never say 100% that the gas pipe will not need upgrading. Sorry to give you bad news. But most Vaillant’s still have a 15mm gas connection.

 

[DevsAd]

There's a gas hob in the kitchen, a gas ffir ii the living room and rads throughout

Unless you were to measure the complete length of the gas pipe from meter to boiler, how many - and what type - of bends are involved, the kW ratings of the hob and fire and where they are tee'd off the main pipe, and then ask nicely for a gas safe on here to do the calcs for you, I doubt they can answer from your post

Your own plumber seemed to think it would be necessary - presumably he made a ballpark guesstimate, but he could confirm it either way by using calcs.

Having a fire and hob obviously adds to the total load. It could come down to where these items are tee'd off; if increasing (if it's needed) the pipe size up to these tees will do the job, and if this initial run is before your kitchen floor, then then length under your floor to the actual boiler may be ok.

Quite a few 'ifs', tho'.

That external exp vessel doesn't have to be mounted next to the boiler, it can go anywhere on the rad pipe system. You might, for example, have a room where there's a unit close to a rad and it could be fitted in there? Not exactly pretty, but just looking for solutions.

 

[DevsAd]

You can never say 100% that the gas pipe will not need upgrading. Sorry to give you bad news. But most Vaillant’s still have a 15mm gas connection.

I was very surprised to find my GlowWorm 30CXi had only a 15mm gas inlet. So it was 22mm all the way to within a few inches.

Actually - thinking about it now - it probably shouldn't have been a surprise as all the internal gas-carrying pipework in the boiler will be small dia, so having the inlet only 15mm ain't as weird as I first thought?

 

[Sarah Wykes]

The space under the boiler was enough to fit a microwave as this is how I hid the pipes, so at least 30cm high and then the depth of the microwave, so although the picture probably doesn't look like there's a lot of room, there was enough room for a microwave underneath the boiler - would this be enough room for an expansion vessel?

 

[DevsAd]

The space under the boiler was enough to fit a microwave as this is how I hid the pipes, so at least 30cm high and then the depth of the microwave, so although the picture probably doesn't look like there's a lot of room, there was enough room for a microwave underneath the boiler - would this be enough room for an expansion vessel?

I'd have thought it pretty tight, tho' there's a chance (not sure of the size of vessel you need.)

What's under the microwave space - is there a kitchen base unit? If so, I'd have thought it could go in there.

Could you post a further-back picture to show what's around the boiler?

 

[Sarah Wykes]

There's a worktop then underneath space for a washing machine, so I am afraid no kitchen unit to go under. I will aim to get a photo again tonight, I may not be able to get back to the house until tomorrow though, whichever way I will get one and post it.

 

[Harvest Fields]

That external exp vessel doesn't have to be mounted next to the boiler, it can go anywhere on the rad pipe system. You might, for example, have a room where there's a unit close to a rad and it could be fitted in there? Not exactly pretty, but just looking for solutions.

It should be as close to the boiler as possible and on the return. It will not do the job properly if it is miles away from the boiler which is why it is built in to the boiler.

 

[sammathias]

Sorry if someone has already said but how has the bloke come to the conclusion you need a new vessel? Leaking water? Cant be recharged? Pressure always dropping?

 

[DevsAd]

It should be as close to the boiler as possible and on the return. It will not do the job properly if it is miles away from the boiler which is why it is built in to the boiler.

(Dare I?)

The reason it's built in to the boiler is because that's the obvious place to have it, rather than having to install a separate unit.

And, I guess it's not ideal, but I see no reason why it won't work anywhere on that return pipework - even 'miles' away (assuming we aren't literally talking miles but a different part of the house). The pressure rise - and fall - is gradual, and is evenly distributed throughout the pipe system.

 

[Harvest Fields]

(Dare I?)

The reason it's built in to the boiler is because that's the obvious place to have it, rather than having to install a separate unit.

And, I guess it's not ideal, but I see no reason why it won't work anywhere on that return pipework - even 'miles' away (assuming we aren't literally talking miles but a different part of the house). The pressure rise - and fall - is gradual, and is evenly distributed throughout the pipe system.

You can do whatever you want mate, but it should be situated on the return back to the boiler after all radiators/hot water(If system/open vent)/underfloor returns.

 

[DevsAd]

 

[jtsplumbing]

Just gone through your first post you mention the plumber who was doing a Gas Safety check is this a Rented property ? are you the tenant ? or the owner ?

 

[quality]

I've got the same boiler, and had the same problem. Wouldn't recommend taking a 15 year old boiler off the wall, especially as the flue may be damaged and you would need to pay for another.

If you can, fit an external vessel. 30 quid for the vessel from Toolstation, plus a bit of pipe and couple of fittings. Did mine myself. Before you go down this route, sometimes although the valve on old vessel is spurting water, the diaphragm can re-seat itself if you try inflating it with system drained. Not always though. You poss wouldn't need an espansion vessel as big as the one on my photo - I may have slightly over sized. Doesn't need to be above boiler either, could poss go underneath or other place - as long as it's plumbed into the heating return pipe near the boiler.

If the rest of the boiler is fine, I would definitely get it fixed. They are one of the best boiler's made and all parts are available and easy to fix. Prices reasonable too. Much better than modern Vaillant plastic rubbish.

View attachment 32809

I would recommend taking that 15 year old boiler of the wall and replacing it

 

[Martyn2]

Hi

We have a vaillant turbo max 824e rs combi boiler that has been serviced and we've been told that the boiler is found to be gas safe but is in need of a new expansion vessel along with a pressure relief valve.

How much should be expected to pay for this (Coventry)? I have only one quote from the guy who did the gas safety record. We were told that the boiler might need to be removed completely from the wall to have the new vessel fitted that the price could be significantly reduced if there was more headroom above the boiler so the old tank could be raised up from behind.

Sarah

As far as a new expansion vessel goes, there is an alternative. You can drain the system and after refilling, partially bleed one radiator, preferably in a room you don't use much. This will act as an expansion vessel. As the pressure relief valve is a purely mechanical device I suggest yo dismantle it, give it a good clean and retest.

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Had anyone actually considered reinflating the expansion vessel?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

As far as a new expansion vessel goes, there is an alternative. You can drain the system and after refilling, partially bleed one radiator, preferably in a room you don't use much. This will act as an expansion vessel. As the pressure relief valve is a purely mechanical device I suggest yo dismantle it, give it a good clean and retest.

you do realise the air will eventually move / get dispersed

 

[Martyn2]

you do realise the air will eventually move / get dispersed

I have been running my system like this for the past 4 years, no problem. Changing boiler this year though as the existing one is 15 years old.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I have been running my system like this for the past 4 years, no problem. Changing boiler this year though as the existing one is 15 years old.

You sure your system isn't open vented?

 

[dan_the_plumber]

you do realise the air will eventually move / get dispersed

 

[dan_the_plumber]

you do realise the air will eventually move / get dispersed

 

[Martyn2]

You sure your system isn't open vented?

Positive!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Positive!

That's a yes correct?

If so that's why you haven't had a problem

 

[Harvest Fields]

As far as a new expansion vessel goes, there is an alternative. You can drain the system and after refilling, partially bleed one radiator, preferably in a room you don't use much. This will act as an expansion vessel. As the pressure relief valve is a purely mechanical device I suggest yo dismantle it, give it a good clean and retest.

This used to be used as a short term fix to get people through the weekend on a Friday evening. Not a long term fix

 

[Sarah Wykes]

I'd have thought it pretty tight, tho' there's a chance (not sure of the size of vessel you need.)

What's under the microwave space - is there a kitchen base unit? If so, I'd have thought it could go in there.

Could you post a further-back picture to show what's around the boiler?

Sorry for the delay but here are some more pictures

 

[Sarah Wykes]

Sorry if someone has already said but how has the bloke come to the conclusion you need a new vessel? Leaking water? Cant be recharged? Pressure always dropping?

The pressure is always dropping

 

[Sarah Wykes]

Just gone through your first post you mention the plumber who was doing a Gas Safety check is this a Rented property ? are you the tenant ? or the owner ?

I am the owner, the first time renting the house and the tenant should be moving in in a couple of weeks

 

[sammathias]

The pressure is always dropping

Has he tried recharging the vessel? Renewed prv? Still dropping? Potential central heating pipework leak?

 

[DevsAd]

Assuming that the plumber has done the obvious stuff and checked that the boiler's exp vessel is knackered, then your options remain as before, Sarah.

1) New boiler - circa £2k
2) New boiler vessel + PRV - £350 (with the associated risk of disturbing the boiler, but looking at the photo the flue shouldn't be an issue).
3) Fit an external exp vessel and replace PRV - I dunno, £200-ish?

An external vessel could be fitted on that adjacent wall - very ugly indeed - or possibly in a nearby room (where do these pipes through the ceiling go to?)

Anyhoo, your own plumber is the guy who's going to carry out whichever of these jobs you decide on, so discuss the 3 options with him