Is my plumber telling porkies?

[Sprintmancolin]

Hi all,

Recently had my central heating replaced, including a new bathroom installation (upstairs).

Had bought some posh Victorian-styled angled wallmounted radiator valves for the posh Victorian-styled bathroom radiator, but the plumber did not fit them. Instead, he fitted some ugly thermostatic valves, stating that the valves had to be thermostatic because they were "in the bathroom, in the room next to the hot water tank upstairs".

Is this correct? I suspect he just forgot to fit the correct valves but is trying to get out of it by telling me something I know nothing about.

Thanks for any guidance.

 

[Roger Welton]

You should have thermostaic valves on all radiator except the ones serving the space with the room thermostat, 'tis in the building regs.

 

[Ray Stafford]

See Roger's comment above about building regs.

However, if you made it clear to the plumber that you wanted the "posh victorian style" valves, he should have advised you at the time of the building regs. If you had then insisted, he would have had the option of doing what the customer wanted, or withdrawing from the job.

On the other hand, if you didn't make it clear, and expected him to use his crystal ball to determine your wishes, then I don't think you can blame him for just following regs.

Like most unhappy customer/trademan problems, its all in the communication.

 

[chris watkins]

Hi all,

Recently had my central heating replaced, including a new bathroom installation (upstairs).

Had bought some posh Victorian-styled angled wallmounted radiator valves for the posh Victorian-styled bathroom radiator, but the plumber did not fit them. Instead, he fitted some ugly thermostatic valves, stating that the valves had to be thermostatic because they were "in the bathroom, in the room next to the hot water tank upstairs".

Is this correct? I suspect he just forgot to fit the correct valves but is trying to get out of it by telling me something I know nothing about.

Thanks for any guidance.

Your plumber is correct I am afraid, for the installation to be compliant with current Part L & for them to self notify the installation "all the rads except the room containing the room thermostat must be fitted with TRV.
Please see table 3 (3) page 18 of attached guide.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf

What would have been nice (but of cause we don't know the circumstances) is for your plumber to tell you this before the install, it is one of the dangers however of clients supplying parts.

You can get antique style TRV some I found on a quick google Thermostatic Radiator Valves Cast Iron Radiators

Hope that helps

 

[Sprintmancolin]

Thanks for your replies - very helpful. So, if the room thermostat is in the bathroom there would be no requirement to fit thermostatic valves to the bathroom rad? Cheers again.

 

[Roger Welton]

Yes, but this wouldn't be a good place for the room stat.

 

[Dotty]

Very much a bad position for a room stat.

2 rooms a room stat can't go in are kitchen and bathroom. Inadvisable for it to go upstairs unless that floor is on its own zone.

Has to go in the living room or more commonly the hall.

 

[oz-plumber]

Why don't you just call the plumber back and instruct him to change the valves.
Pay him for his time and you and he will be happy.


It would be such a minor breach of the Building Regs, that if anything did happen - it would not be worth the time or cost of the rectification.

For not having the radiator controlled by a TRV - it will be costing you more money each year on running cost.

 

[Dotty]

Look at note 5 on page 18 of the document Chris pointed you at.

 

[SimonG]

Communication would have sorted it. Your plumber is correct in what he has installed, but I would have discussed this sort of thing before the job started.

As for the room stat in the bathroom, that's probably a no no under the electrical regs and also when you have had a soak in a red hot bath for an hour in January and you come out the bathroom to the rest of the house being freezing cold, not good.

If you do go for a decorative trv then just be careful, some of the cheaper ones are really gash.

 

[townfanjon]

You should have thermostaic valves on all radiator except the ones serving the space with the room thermostat, 'tis in the building regs.

True I know, I have never agreed with it. balmy reg !!!

 

[T & H Plumbing]

I think you should add your plumber to your Xmas card list, he gave you sound advice

 

[thorn]

Personally don't see the problem with not having a TRV in the bathroom, lots of customers prefer it without so it doesn't knock off when it gets steamy, I understand the need for part L but it doesn't always seem that practical as in this case

 

[Ray Stafford]

Your plumber is correct I am afraid, for the installation to be compliant with current Part L & for them to self notify the installation "all the rads except the room containing the room thermostat must be fitted with TRV.
Please see table 3 (3) page 18 of attached guide.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf

What would have been nice (but of cause we don't know the circumstances) is for your plumber to tell you this before the install, it is one of the dangers however of clients supplying parts.

You can get antique style TRV some I found on a quick google Thermostatic Radiator Valves Cast Iron Radiators

Hope that helps

Hypothetical question Chris.

What if I was to argue that my towel rail is not a radiator? I have both a radiator and a towel rail in my bathroom. The radiator is a space heating emitter, and has a TRV attached. However, I could argue that the primary purpose of a towel rail is not as a space heater (it is hideously inefficient in that role compared to the radiator) but is to dry towels - a purpose which is frustrated by fitting a TRV.

 

[WHPES]

Its all well and good saying that but on one occasion I had a building inspector insist I change a bathroom radiator valve to a thermostatic one.

 

[SimonG]

Its all well and good saying that but on one occasion I had a building inspector insist I change a bathroom radiator valve to a thermostatic one.

It was the oftec inspector for me.

 

[chris watkins]

Hypothetical question Chris.

What if I was to argue that my towel rail is not a radiator? I have both a radiator and a towel rail in my bathroom. The radiator is a space heating emitter, and has a TRV attached. However, I could argue that the primary purpose of a towel rail is not as a space heater (it is hideously inefficient in that role compared to the radiator) but is to dry towels - a purpose which is frustrated by fitting a TRV.

I have exactly what you describe in mine but have a TRV on each, the one on towel rail is set on close to max & it still dry's them fine. It will still slow the water flow even if it does not shut it off completely. The remote one on the rad is set to give 22 deg C & will shut down, I agree this might be a bit overkill but it works.

The thing is that the main form of heating in the room should be controlled unlike what was common until recently just two lock-shields.

I bet there is some who still pipe a towel rail off of the primary's to / from the cylinder so the towel rail is on in the summer!!!!!!

 

[solutions]

True I know, I have never agreed with it. balmy reg !!!

The room is either up to the comfort setting of the trv or its not. Dont see that it matters if the heat in the room came from the rad, filling the bath or taking a shower no sense continuing to heat a room when its already at temp.

Personally don't see the problem with not having a TRV in the bathroom, lots of customers prefer it without so it doesn't knock off when it gets steamy, I understand the need for part L but it doesn't always seem that practical as in this case

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Its all well and good saying that but on one occasion I had a building inspector insist I change a bathroom radiator valve to a thermostatic one.

we might not agree with it but that is the rule and if it is to be issues with a certificate saying it complies with Building Regs then it needs to comply.
There is nothing wrong with the building owner then to change things afterwards to not comply with BR (such as take off all the TRVs if they want).
After inspection there is no enforcement of building regs.

 

[plumbtech]

what happens then when the customer cant afford to have trv's fitted, and say just want a new he boiler

 

[chris watkins]

Then you can't sign the boiler install off as Part L complaint.

You should advise the customer that TRV's are required for a good reason & that not installing them will waste a lot of energy & therefore money. (The repayment time for heating controls is short, normally only a year or two).

If they still don't want them get them to sign a statement that you have advised them on the legal requirements & they have refused to comply.

The problem is always that nobody likes to pay & all want a cheaper job.

The question I have for you plumbtech is just how low (cheap) will you go ??

How about if I don't want the boiler commissioned or the system cleaned correctly & no inhibitor or perhaps if I employed a non GSR installer cos all the above add extra cost to the job.

I call it having a professional standard below which I will not work.

 

[plumbtech]

well very often my in my experience one of the first questions customers ask is how much . and i find that alot of peoples choices in there homes revolve around cost. obviously you explain the need for all components but if they couldnt afford trv's i would explain and offer them a cost without .

if you use a non gsr installer then all of the above would probably apply

if my customer cannot afford to have the trv's fitted then i would not discriminate against them because they dont have the finances , i would find a professional compromise with the customer with which we can both work

 

[Sprintmancolin]

Thank you everyone for your replies. Very helpful.

 

[goz666]

I've fit quite a lot of these victorian type rads and TRV's are normally available for them in the same style as the lockshield.

 

[Roger Welton]

Hypothetical question Chris.

What if I was to argue that my towel rail is not a radiator? I have both a radiator and a towel rail in my bathroom. The radiator is a space heating emitter, and has a TRV attached. However, I could argue that the primary purpose of a towel rail is not as a space heater (it is hideously inefficient in that role compared to the radiator) but is to dry towels - a purpose which is frustrated by fitting a TRV.

My take on this is if it is not for space heating as you say then it should be on a separate zone with independent time control.

 

[chris watkins]

well very often my in my experience one of the first questions customers ask is how much . and i find that alot of peoples choices in there homes revolve around cost. obviously you explain the need for all components but if they couldnt afford trv's i would explain and offer them a cost without .

if you use a non gsr installer then all of the above would probably apply

if my customer cannot afford to have the trv's fitted then i would not discriminate against them because they dont have the finances , i would find a professional compromise with the customer with which we can both work

So how do you know what customers can & can't afford ?

Buying decisions nearly always have a "what is it going to cost me" element & buying a new boiler is no exception.
However whenever this topic comes up, those who claim that people can't afford this or that, always sound to me like they are justifying why it is they aren't installing items required by Law & gaining a competitive advantage over the rest of us trying to do things correctly.

 

[plumbtech]

So how do you know what customers can & can't afford ?

Buying decisions nearly always have a "what is it going to cost me" element & buying a new boiler is no exception.
However whenever this topic comes up, those who claim that people can't afford this or that, always sound to me like they are justifying why it is they aren't installing items required by Law & gaining a competitive advantage over the rest of us trying to do things correctly.

the give away is when the customer says i cant afford that and "by the way what are thermostatic radiator valves".

i am not trying to justify any claims, all anyone can do is take a customer on face value. if they say they cant afford the trv's then i dont challenge them about there finances . and as for trying to do things correctly when you do and they read the quote this is where you can sometimes end up.

 

[WHPES]

If they can't afford the £12 or so for an average TRV then walk away as you are going to struggle getting paid off them.

I can never understand the customers who have potentially dangerous boilers and yet want to spend money on fancy bathrooms and flash cars, yet when there is something that can potentially kill you, they shrug their shoulders and say "its been like that for ages and we are still here". Personally I do not follow up enquiries from these kind of people as they usually want to cut corners and pay as little as possible.

 

[gbheatingtech]

Depending on boiler manufacturer requirements also, they ask for either auto bypass to be fitted or 10% of the radiator circuit to be on lock shield valves. In the case of the latter a towel rail is always a good option to have on the 10% and the radiator in the room with the room stat also. But only if you can run the towel rail as part of the 10%

 

[WHPES]

Auto bypass valve should be fitted on all systems. If someone closes the towel rail off the pump could burn out if one is not fitted, and also its wasteful circulating water round a circuit when heat is not required.