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Kaz1111
Downstairs rads suddenly cold from about a week ago.
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Discuss Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power flus in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Worcester GReenstar HE boiler with hot water cylinder in airing cupboard with grundfos 15/60 pump.
So, problem is that downstairs rads suddenly stone cold from about a week ago. have bled rads, no change, turned them all of upstairs to try and divert downstairs, some became warm, but certainly not hot, some still stone cold.
History - boiler changed to Worcester GReenstar He around 7 yrs ago she we moved in and some rads added/ renewed. Two rads at back of house still never heated that well so around 15 months ago decided to try and fix that. heating engineer said problem was that Grundfos pump too small, changed from 15/50 to 15/60. Since then all rads wonderfully warm till around a week ago, as above.
New heating engineer came yesterday, didn't think pump as only 15 months old. Power flushed today, said got some heat to each and every rad in the flushing process. However once system refilled and balanced, no change, downstairs rads still cold.
On telephoning Worcester for some help he says they told him should not have 'extra' grundfos pump in airing cupboard as this will 'compete' with pump in boiler and they will be fighting against each other, causing both to fail quicker than they should (is this correct?).
Therefore engineer now suggesting renewing boiler pump and taking grundfos pump out, although he did say he tried running grundfos pump only today, still no heat to downstairs rads, and then boiler pump only, and, again, still no heat to downstairs rads so surely this unlikely to solve problem?
I am wondering if We may just need a new grundfos pump and a bit cautious about just doing away with this pump as the new grundfos 15/60 15 or so months ago gave us fully hot radiators all over the house!
I would be grateful for all and any ideas as concerned that I am going to be spending a lot of money trying to fix this without a correct diagnosis as to what is actually causing the problem...
Worcester GReenstar HE boiler with hot water cylinder in airing cupboard with grundfos 15/60 pump.
So, problem is that downstairs rads suddenly stone cold from about a week ago. have bled rads, no change, turned them all of upstairs to try and divert downstairs, some became warm, but certainly not hot, some still stone cold.
History - boiler changed to Worcester GReenstar He around 7 yrs ago she we moved in and some rads added/ renewed. Two rads at back of house still never heated that well so around 15 months ago decided to try and fix that. heating engineer said problem was that Grundfos pump too small, changed from 15/50 to 15/60. Since then all rads wonderfully warm till around a week ago, as above.
New heating engineer came yesterday, didn't think pump as only 15 months old. Power flushed today, said got some heat to each and every rad in the flushing process. However once system refilled and balanced, no change, downstairs rads still cold.
On telephoning Worcester for some help he says they told him should not have 'extra' grundfos pump in airing cupboard as this will 'compete' with pump in boiler and they will be fighting against each other, causing both to fail quicker than they should (is this correct?).
Therefore engineer now suggesting renewing boiler pump and taking grundfos pump out, although he did say he tried running grundfos pump only today, still no heat to downstairs rads, and then boiler pump only, and, again, still no heat to downstairs rads so surely this unlikely to solve problem?
I am wondering if We may just need a new grundfos pump and a bit cautious about just doing away with this pump as the new grundfos 15/60 15 or so months ago gave us fully hot radiators all over the house!
I would be grateful for all and any ideas as concerned that I am going to be spending a lot of money trying to fix this without a correct diagnosis as to what is actually causing the problem...
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Thanks Tom, would be great if you could spare the time to read rest of post, first one just wanted to post as have typed out about 3 times and kept saying I wasn't logged in ....
Thanks Tom, would be great if you could spare the time to read rest of post, first one just wanted to post as have typed out about 3 times and kept saying I wasn't logged in ....
J
jfb
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
The worcester engineer is right you can not have two pumps on the same system they will compete against each other. Sometimes a pump appears to be working but the impellors are damaged or worn. There may be a closed off or partially closed valve in the system. Sometimes gate valves can be a problem the stem snaps. Your system may need balancing water will always take the easiest route. As a rule of thumb half close the upstairs lockshields and fully open the downstairs ones. If it starts to work balance the system using a thermometer.
The worcester engineer is right you can not have two pumps on the same system they will compete against each other. Sometimes a pump appears to be working but the impellors are damaged or worn. There may be a closed off or partially closed valve in the system. Sometimes gate valves can be a problem the stem snaps. Your system may need balancing water will always take the easiest route. As a rule of thumb half close the upstairs lockshields and fully open the downstairs ones. If it starts to work balance the system using a thermometer.
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
are upstairs rads as hot as normal ? you dont have a room stat on both floors is your hot water hot feel the pipes but be cateful they could be very hot do you have a bypass on the system
are upstairs rads as hot as normal ? you dont have a room stat on both floors is your hot water hot feel the pipes but be cateful they could be very hot do you have a bypass on the system
P
plumber0808
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
It does sound like the pump on the boiler. also maybe blockage in system.
A bit worrying that the engineer needs worcester to tell him that there shouldn't be a extra pump fitted. That needs to be cut out but why was it fitted in the first place.
It does sound like the pump on the boiler. also maybe blockage in system.
A bit worrying that the engineer needs worcester to tell him that there shouldn't be a extra pump fitted. That needs to be cut out but why was it fitted in the first place.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Thank you to everyone that has replied. Take the point that the engineer should know you can't run two pumps .... But he was not the one that fitted new grundfos 15 months ago at a cost of £ 360 ... However, it worked and all rads hot for first time!
Sorry if this is a daft question, I am a woman with very limited knowledge ... Do all boilers have a pump in them? Surely not, otherwise why would you have a pump in airing cupboard which so many people seem to have?
one more thing, if it helps with the detective work. Now that we have heating on '5' on boiler, it normally reads about 75 then, but keeps fluctuating now, going down to say 35 and then coming back up ( may have always done/. Should do this, but trying to spot everything now)! Would this have anything to do with pump on boiler?
So, most of you would agree pump in airing cupboard needs to go and we should be relying on pump that is in the boiler to pump the heat round whole house ?
Thank you to everyone that has replied. Take the point that the engineer should know you can't run two pumps .... But he was not the one that fitted new grundfos 15 months ago at a cost of £ 360 ... However, it worked and all rads hot for first time!
Sorry if this is a daft question, I am a woman with very limited knowledge ... Do all boilers have a pump in them? Surely not, otherwise why would you have a pump in airing cupboard which so many people seem to have?
one more thing, if it helps with the detective work. Now that we have heating on '5' on boiler, it normally reads about 75 then, but keeps fluctuating now, going down to say 35 and then coming back up ( may have always done/. Should do this, but trying to spot everything now)! Would this have anything to do with pump on boiler?
So, most of you would agree pump in airing cupboard needs to go and we should be relying on pump that is in the boiler to pump the heat round whole house ?
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Also, if possible blockage, how do we remove - isn't this what the power flush is for?
Thanks for all your advice.
Also, if possible blockage, how do we remove - isn't this what the power flush is for?
Thanks for all your advice.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
And can someone give a quick explanation of what bypass is?
And can someone give a quick explanation of what bypass is?
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
a system boiler has a pump inside it. a heat only boiler does not and you normally find the pump in the Air cupboard.
a bypass is a spring valve which is set to open at a adjustable pressure to make sure the boiler always has a min flow rate through it. Some boilers have them built in, some need an external one on the system, some will need/require both.
a powerflush is to clean the heating system, it wont always remove partial blockages especially bad ones.
a system boiler has a pump inside it. a heat only boiler does not and you normally find the pump in the Air cupboard.
a bypass is a spring valve which is set to open at a adjustable pressure to make sure the boiler always has a min flow rate through it. Some boilers have them built in, some need an external one on the system, some will need/require both.
a powerflush is to clean the heating system, it wont always remove partial blockages especially bad ones.
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- 3,471
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Maybe the 15 month old pump is blocked or sludged up, did the chap check when power flushing?
Where did he powerflush from? Maybe the debris was pushed into the boilers pump!
Maybe the 15 month old pump is blocked or sludged up, did the chap check when power flushing?
Where did he powerflush from? Maybe the debris was pushed into the boilers pump!
P
plumber0808
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Theres your problem ^^^ all rads hot for the first time. When were they not hot.
there is a circulation issue, pump, sludge, blockage maybe.
Theres your problem ^^^ all rads hot for the first time. When were they not hot.
there is a circulation issue, pump, sludge, blockage maybe.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Thank you everyone. Tom, I will have to check when hot water only on and will let you know.
Gas Safe - power flush was done from hall radiator.
A Wheating - thanks for explanation. By heat only system you mean heats rads only and not hot water?
Plumber 0808 - so from what you say perhaps pump on boiler was not so good when grundfos one was fitted so grundfos 'extra' pump fixed the problem for a while until the use of both, one on boiler and grundfos caused one or both to fail.
So to recap - would next step be remove grundfos and replace boiler pump?
How do you locate the sludge/blockage and remove ...
Obviously my concern is that I have spent money on power flush and now need to spend some more and worried that we are going to go through a few things that are not solving problem.
Thank you everyone. Tom, I will have to check when hot water only on and will let you know.
Gas Safe - power flush was done from hall radiator.
A Wheating - thanks for explanation. By heat only system you mean heats rads only and not hot water?
Plumber 0808 - so from what you say perhaps pump on boiler was not so good when grundfos one was fitted so grundfos 'extra' pump fixed the problem for a while until the use of both, one on boiler and grundfos caused one or both to fail.
So to recap - would next step be remove grundfos and replace boiler pump?
How do you locate the sludge/blockage and remove ...
Obviously my concern is that I have spent money on power flush and now need to spend some more and worried that we are going to go through a few things that are not solving problem.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Also, engineer said grundfos pump was working otherwise radiators would not heat up upstairs ... But he did also say he took silver screw off and it was working ?
Also, engineer said grundfos pump was working otherwise radiators would not heat up upstairs ... But he did also say he took silver screw off and it was working ?
V
vern
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Lol this sounds like Zebs head wrecker thread? Same job?
Lol this sounds like Zebs head wrecker thread? Same job?
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
I'm pleased its giving you a laugh guys, and its certainly wrecking my head .... But please take pity and give me some proper suggestions as to where to go next ... Or if any of you are near to South London ...
I'm pleased its giving you a laugh guys, and its certainly wrecking my head .... But please take pity and give me some proper suggestions as to where to go next ... Or if any of you are near to South London ...
P
plumber0808
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
The 2 rads that struggled before are either, undersized pipework or sludge is restricting the flow to them. by fitting the second pump your curing a problem with another problem. Remove the second pump have a new pump fitted to the boiler.
Sometimes a power flush is not the answer as some systems are too far gone.
The 2 rads that struggled before are either, undersized pipework or sludge is restricting the flow to them. by fitting the second pump your curing a problem with another problem. Remove the second pump have a new pump fitted to the boiler.
Sometimes a power flush is not the answer as some systems are too far gone.
R
R1CKY
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
First step should be to remove the external pump, unless you have an extremely large system I can't think why you'd need an extra pump. Just because it is rotating does not mean it is working, the fins could have snapped on the impeller. The external pump could actually be causing a restriction in the system.
The radiator he powerflushed from, what size is the pipework supplying it? Drinking straw sized or larger? If it is drinking straw sized (8 or 10mm) the powerflush will have been next to useless.
First step should be to remove the external pump, unless you have an extremely large system I can't think why you'd need an extra pump. Just because it is rotating does not mean it is working, the fins could have snapped on the impeller. The external pump could actually be causing a restriction in the system.
The radiator he powerflushed from, what size is the pipework supplying it? Drinking straw sized or larger? If it is drinking straw sized (8 or 10mm) the powerflush will have been next to useless.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Plumber 0808, thank you. I understand what you are saying, but we were warm once the new grundfos was fitted! Will try with new pump to boiler then. By 'too far gone', does that mean replacing system, or is there something other than power flush to remove sludge.
Tom - hot water only been on for about an hour. Boiler temp seems to be fluctuating between 75 down to around 63 ...
Plumber 0808, thank you. I understand what you are saying, but we were warm once the new grundfos was fitted! Will try with new pump to boiler then. By 'too far gone', does that mean replacing system, or is there something other than power flush to remove sludge.
Tom - hot water only been on for about an hour. Boiler temp seems to be fluctuating between 75 down to around 63 ...
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Thanks for all your advice guys; Ricky, no idea what size the pipe work is Im afraid....
Thanks for all your advice guys; Ricky, no idea what size the pipe work is Im afraid....
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
We had a similar problem this week, from what most here are saying the pump is playing a vital part in the problem.
That wasn't the case for us, the rads that were not working needed new valves. They were 35 years old though and had never been touched since new. Changed valves, refilled and every radiator was piping hot.
We had a similar problem this week, from what most here are saying the pump is playing a vital part in the problem.
That wasn't the case for us, the rads that were not working needed new valves. They were 35 years old though and had never been touched since new. Changed valves, refilled and every radiator was piping hot.
J
jrmurray
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
It may also be worth fitting a magna clean to the system as it stops all the sludge from passing through your boiler and the rest of the system.
It may also be worth fitting a magna clean to the system as it stops all the sludge from passing through your boiler and the rest of the system.
W
Whyme
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
I know its late in the thread to reply but a 15/60 pump is a meaty pump which should move it round BUT like all others say there shouldnt be any reason to fit an external pump, if the boiler has one ( unless its a massive house and youve got low loss headers etc). The best course of action is like above replace internal boiler pump and get a good word of mouth firm or plumber to spend a day properly treating, flushing and cleansing ur system...good luck.
I know its late in the thread to reply but a 15/60 pump is a meaty pump which should move it round BUT like all others say there shouldnt be any reason to fit an external pump, if the boiler has one ( unless its a massive house and youve got low loss headers etc). The best course of action is like above replace internal boiler pump and get a good word of mouth firm or plumber to spend a day properly treating, flushing and cleansing ur system...good luck.
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Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Usually older heat only ones don't have the pump, newer ones does have (especially combis). Extra pump probably was fitted to increase the preassure and push water through the blockage.
It looks like there is a VERY SERIOUS restriction(s) of the flow in the system. The chemicals used before the powerflush had loosened a few clumps of sludge, which had probably blocked the orifice... It may be in/near the pump, gate valves, boiler, its heat exchanger, sludged up droppers, anywhere (but I would suspect the main circuit first, since the boiler is cycling). You need to get yourself a Good Professional (Like user Bunker or most others on this forum)) or Good Hobby plumber (DIYer who had worked with radiators AND plumbing before, and his family/friends were pleased with his work), who is ready to spend at least 1-2 FULL DAYS overhauling the WHOLE system. He will need a hand with radiators (very likely), so have one more strong lad available.- Check the flow resistance trough each system part, flush EACH dropper/radiator INDIVIDUALLY/DIRECTLY, remove the radiator/gate valves, if there is lack of good flow. Also you'll want someone, who is ready to replace parts of piping, if they are still restricted...
Read/print this: (http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...olution-how-do-proper-cheap-job-yourself.html), to give you some idea of the proper (after)flush, and don't leave the job unattended. If done by pro - the protocol can be varied, but still should be done THROUGHLY. The flusher connection to ONLY RADIATOR won't cut it...
If they have a power flush machine - attach it instead of the Pump, to the boiler, coil (if you've got one) and EACH dropper pair and also each radiator directly, and flush untill clear...
Do fit good magnetic filter to the boiler return at the end (may go instead of the secondary pump, if the boiler has one.
Before taking everything to bits, you can try listening for the water noise, when the pump or flusher is running - it may pinpoint the location of the blockage - noise is similar to half open tap or toilet cistern fill up (esp near the end). If it's sludge blockage, it may not be audible (longer orifice).
Usually older heat only ones don't have the pump, newer ones does have (especially combis). Extra pump probably was fitted to increase the preassure and push water through the blockage.
It looks like there is a VERY SERIOUS restriction(s) of the flow in the system. The chemicals used before the powerflush had loosened a few clumps of sludge, which had probably blocked the orifice... It may be in/near the pump, gate valves, boiler, its heat exchanger, sludged up droppers, anywhere (but I would suspect the main circuit first, since the boiler is cycling). You need to get yourself a Good Professional (Like user Bunker or most others on this forum)) or Good Hobby plumber (DIYer who had worked with radiators AND plumbing before, and his family/friends were pleased with his work), who is ready to spend at least 1-2 FULL DAYS overhauling the WHOLE system. He will need a hand with radiators (very likely), so have one more strong lad available.- Check the flow resistance trough each system part, flush EACH dropper/radiator INDIVIDUALLY/DIRECTLY, remove the radiator/gate valves, if there is lack of good flow. Also you'll want someone, who is ready to replace parts of piping, if they are still restricted...
Read/print this: (http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...olution-how-do-proper-cheap-job-yourself.html), to give you some idea of the proper (after)flush, and don't leave the job unattended. If done by pro - the protocol can be varied, but still should be done THROUGHLY. The flusher connection to ONLY RADIATOR won't cut it...
If they have a power flush machine - attach it instead of the Pump, to the boiler, coil (if you've got one) and EACH dropper pair and also each radiator directly, and flush untill clear...
Do fit good magnetic filter to the boiler return at the end (may go instead of the secondary pump, if the boiler has one.
Before taking everything to bits, you can try listening for the water noise, when the pump or flusher is running - it may pinpoint the location of the blockage - noise is similar to half open tap or toilet cistern fill up (esp near the end). If it's sludge blockage, it may not be audible (longer orifice).
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