Has my friend been Ripped off ?or is this fair ?

[big kenneth]

Hello just joined and my 1st post on here .

My friend has had a new combi boiler fitted then asked the same engineer a few months later to install 2 double panel radiators where the 2 single small panel ones were too small ,( they worked great got piping hot but there was just not enough output to heat the rooms .

So 2 double panel and a bit bigger in size radiators were fitted ,he refilled the system ,turned the heating on and after 30 mins both were stone cold ,so he turned off every thermostat valve off and waited ,both got slighly warm , then says he's got to go to another job and tells my friend to leave the valves off for another 20 mins then open them up .
My friend asked " what if this doesn't work?" ,
He replys he would come out next week take the radiators off and check to see if there is a blockage and if there isn't then he cannot do any more unless she pays him to put new pipework in or investigate further ,as his job was to " fit the new radiators and valves" and that's what he's done ,i'm fuming i've told my friend he's talking cr@p and its his job to leave the job with the new radiators red hot .

The heatings been on 2 hrs and 3 radiators upstairs are bouncing , but the 2 new ones downstairs one is stone cold and the other is warm at most at the top the other 4 downstairs are warm to hot.
To me the whole system needs bleeding then balancing .

So to all you heating engineers is it accectable to leave a job like this ? i don't think so ,but is he right in saying his quote was to fit 2 new radiators and valves and thats it ! .obviously when fitting the new radiators air etc has got in the system so surely when he refills the system he needs to bleed and balance them ?

 

[steadyon]

1. No plumber worth his or her salt would leave a system in this condition.
2. It is an implicit term in the agreement to do the work (verbal or written) that it will be conducted to a reasonable standard.
3. Leaving new radiators which don't work in place of old radiators which did could not in any sense be construed as work of even a reasonable standard.
4. Its a disgrace. I'd suggest your friend write to the firm giving them 14 days to correct the situation, telling them that if they fail to correct the problem he / she will employ a different firm to finish the work, and expect the original firm to pay. If they fail to pay they could be taken before the small claims court.

 

[Scott_D]

My friend asked " what if this doesn't work?" ,
He replys he would come out next week take the radiators off and check to see if there is a blockage

Ask him to return. I dont see there is a reason to be 'fuming' just yet

 

[big kenneth]

Ask him to return. I dont see there is a reason to be 'fuming' just yet

Because he said if he did return it would be to check that there was no flow problems with the new fitted radiators and valves and if there wasn't they would have to pay more for him to either fit new pipe or investigate ,yet the system was working fine before he came and replaced 2 radiators .

 

[SimonG]

He says she says.

Missing a lot of facts. The radiators have increased in excess of 100% of the original output. May find that they are fed off 10mm pipe that are over long. Fine for the smaller rads but not for the bigger ones. Hence struggling.

Maybe just ran out of time. It happens. Earliest he can get back is next week. Bulk of system working. Plumbers / heating engineers have lives and family as well.

Let him go back, he will probably get it sorted. Not quite in the 'knickers in a twist' time just yet.

 

[big kenneth]

First of all its my friend not me .

I'm not getting "my knickers in a twist "

you say let him come back and he will probably get it sorted but he didnt say to my friend "if i come back i'll bleed the radiators and balance them" he said ....

" if i come back all i can do is check the new radiators for blockages as my job was to just fit them " " you will have to pay more for me to investigate the problem "

 

[SimonG]

It will go one of two ways.

1. Hes a cowboy and hes fecked your mate over. Doubt it though.

2. He comes back next week like he said and gets it sorted.

Has he been paid yet?

I gave a potential issue in my first response. If it is something like that then your mate will potentially have to pay for pipework to be upgraded.

 

[Ben-gee]

If he fitted the boiler recently , presumably at least a cold water flush was performed.
He would have been reasonably familiar with the layout/pipe sizing of the system when asked to upsize a couple of rads. If he foresaw any problems doing that he should have flagged up potential remedial work needed. It sounds like a running out of time on the day issue, get him back to sort it - if genuine further costs, pay them but I suspect he’ll sort it relatively easily.

 

[Scott_D]

Sounds like an air lock to me.
Did the plumber supply the radiators and valves?

 

[big kenneth]

Update to this

he refuses to come out and sort out the radiator problem out but it gets deeper.

My friend finds out he is not gas safe registed and used his mates number to sign the job off
She didnt reply to any phone calls / texts
She called his mate who's number he'd used and told him she was reporting them both ,he said he was there with him and finished the job around 5pm, oh dear the job wasnt finished till 9pm at night and her neighbour lent him a halogen light so he could finish the outside work.

Obviously we knew they would make a story up saying they were both there etc but we thought no way will gas safe/ health and safety be that naive and thick to believe them,especially with 3 witnesses who saw everything ....how wrong we were !

The unregisted installer was reported to gas safe and the number and signature are not his ,
gas safe reply " he's not registed with us"

no sh/t sherlock thats why we are reporting him .

They send a letter out to him and his mate who's gas safe number he used about the complaint and gas safe get back to us weeks later saying.
"He said he was just helping and that the gas safe registed installer was there all day "

Well i never ! you don't say !
They were not going to turn around and say fair cop ,i've used my mates number and illegally intalled a gas boiler, punish us both .
So we reply saying we have 3 witnesses to say there was only 1 gas fitter there all day

gas safe say " but they said there were both there "

So you believe the non gas fitter and his qualified mate , but you don't believe us !!
how does that work ???

Health and saftey rang as well saying even if he did do it without a licence it was safely installed , to which i replied "you are kidding me!"
no
so i said i'm watching a few you tube videos tonight and going to fit boilers in my spare time and hung up.

So there you have it ,gas safe joke health and safety joke ,we are appealing

The tw@t who fitted it without being registed even has reviews on checkatrade saying he's done boiler installation.
" he came out boiler was broke he fitted a new one the next day" not the 2 lads came out *or ***they both done a great job ,Also another 2 reviews like that ,we sent screenshots of them to gas safe and health and safety , no still no joy ,

Why have gas safe why have health and safety if this is how they go on.

I really do give in.

 

[SimonG]

Update to this
The unregisted installer was reported to gas safe , gas safe are a joke " he's not registed with us" no sh/t sherlock thats why we are reporting him .

They send a letter out to him and his mate who's gassafe number he used and gas safe get back to us weeks later saying.
"he said he was just helping and that the gas safe registed installer was there all day "

Well i never ! you don't say !
They were not going to turn around and say fair cop ,i've used my mates number punish us both .
So we reply saying we have 3 witnesses to say there was only 1 gas fitter there all day

gas safe say " but they said there were both there "

So you believe the non gas fitter and his qualified mate , but you don't believe us !!

Health and saftey rang as well saying even if he did do it without a licence it was safely installed , to which i replied "you are kidding me!"
no
so i said i'm watching a few you tube videos tonight and going to fit boilers in my spare time and hung up.

So there you have it ,gas safe joke health and safety joke ,we are appealing

the tw@t who fitted it without being registed even has reviews on checkatrade
" he came out boiler was broke he fitted a new one the next day" not the 2 lads came out or they both done a great job , another 2 reviews like that ,we sent screenshots of them to gas safe and health and safety , no still no joy ,

why have gas safe why have health and safety if this is how they go on.

I really do give in.

None of this in the original post.

What about the two radiators that the original post was about?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Now imagine paying them around £300 a year plus the course every 5 years around 2k

 

[SimonG]

Now imagine paying them around £300 a year plus the course every 5 years around 2k

Or if you want a real laugh, look at OFTEC

 

[big kenneth]

None of this in the original post.

What about the two radiators that the original post was about?

The original post first line.
my friend had a new combi boiler fitted and got the same plumber to install some radiators

my update post a few minutes ago

she has found out that he is not gas safe registed ( this was 3 months ago)

I then state he refuses to come out to sort the radiators

Then say what happened when he was reported for an illegal installation

I'll start a fresh thread on illegal combi installation if thats what you want

But so far he has ruined a hardwood floor fitted 2 radiators ,1 that leaks and 1 that is stone cold ,and fitted a gas boiler using someone elses number , and he is on checkatrade !

 

[SJB060685]

The problem with the new radiators could be down to pipe sizing as mentioned above? It could also be just a case of bleeding and balancing, without being there its hard to tell. I suggest your friend hires a reputable engineer/firm that is qualified and genuinely knows what they're doing. By all means continue your pursuit of what is clearly a dodgy guy

 

[SimonG]

The original post first line.
my friend had a new combi boiler fitted and got the same plumber to install some radiators

my update post a few minutes ago

she has found out that he is not gas safe registed ( this was 3 months ago)

I then state he refuses to come out to sort the radiators

Then say what happened when he was reported for an illegal installation

I'll start a fresh thread on illegal combi installation if thats what you want

But so far he has ruined a hardwood floor fitted 2 radiators ,1 that leaks and 1 that is stone cold ,and fitted a gas boiler using someone elses number , and he is on checkatrade !

Updated after my reply though. Anyway.

Firstly forget the not gas safe registered bit. It's got nothing to do at all with the radiators and to be honest he must have done a good job on the boiler for your friend to get him back to do the radiators.

Secondly, get a n other person out to look at it, price to correct it and then write to original bloke, 14 days to fix or it will be fixed and chase him through small claims court also contact trading standards and place a complaint through them.

Checkatrade membership is no indication of being competent at your job. There are many fine and upstanding tradesmen on there and there are also some real dodgy fly by night merchants.

This has been going on for over 5 months, time to get it fixed and move on. Sometimes you just need to realise that lifes far too short.

 

[SimonG]

The problem with the new radiators could be down to pipe sizing as mentioned above? It could also be just a case of bleeding and balancing, without being there its hard to tell. I suggest your friend hires a reputable engineer/firm that is qualified and genuinely knows what they're doing. By all means continue your pursuit of what is clearly a dodgy guy

Hey up he's back. Hope you are well SJB

 

[SJB060685]

Hey up he's back. Hope you are well SJB

Health mate, not going into it here though

 

[big kenneth]

Updated after my reply though. Anyway.

Firstly forget the not gas safe registered bit. It's got nothing to do at all with the radiators and to be honest he must have done a good job on the boiler for your friend to get him back to do the radiators.

Secondly, get a n other person out to look at it, price to correct it and then write to original bloke, 14 days to fix or it will be fixed and chase him through small claims court also contact trading standards and place a complaint through them.

Checkatrade membership is no indication of being competent at your job. There are many fine and upstanding tradesmen on there and there are also some real dodgy fly by night merchants.

This has been going on for over 5 months, time to get it fixed and move on. Sometimes you just need to realise that lifes far too short.

Updated after your reply ?

The first post of this thread states she had a boiler installed

Are you a wind up ?
How is a nurse supposed to know a good job from a bad job ?

She is taking the small claims court route.

5 months She has been waiting for replys from H@S and Gas safe, they have been dragging there heels not her.

And as for brushing aside and "Forget the non gas safe registed bit "REALLY !

A non qualified gas installer who is still installing and could kill a family and you say "Lifes too short" you need to take a reallity check and give your head a shake ! .

 

[SJB060685]

OP please don't discredit the guys above. You're new here, whereas I've been around long enough to know the guys above know what they're on about. Admittedly I'm an oil engineer and not gas qualified but I know the combustion process and the science behind it. I completely understand your concern, natural gas is a hydrocarbon and should only ever be touched by someone qualified and genuinely understands the process. You are right to pursue this further, the original installer is clearly neither qualified, nor understands the work he's undertaking.
The original problem regarding the new larger radiators can only be one of a few things mentioned above.
Your friend needs to hire the experience of someone/firm with a better understanding.
Please respect the advice given, bare in mind this forum offers free advice, advice which is often charged for.

 

[SimonG]

Updated after your reply ?

The first post of this thread states she had a boiler installed

Are you a wind up ?
How is a nurse supposed to know a good job from a bad job ?

She is taking the small claims court route.

5 months She has been waiting for replys from H@S and Gas safe, they have been dragging there heels not her.

And as for brushing aside and "Forget the non gas safe registed bit "REALLY !

A non qualified gas installer who is still installing and could kill a family and you say "Lifes too short" you need to take a reallity check and give your head a shake ! .

And that probably answers the whole issue.

Right.

1. There was no mention in your original, that is post #1, of a non gas safe bloke fitting the combi. Just that your 'friend' had used the same bloke.

2. Again I state if the bloke did a bad job then why get them to come back to do the radiators. Dont give me the crap about shes a nurse and doesn't know what a good job is. What checks did she do prior to hiring this bloke to fit the boiler. Check his name on the gas safe register? Ask to see his gas safe card when he arrived? Checked out previous work? Obviously not.

3. You've been down the gas safe route, did they come and inspect it? Has anybody inspected it? Has it been deemed dangerous?

4. You've been down the H and S route. Same questions.

5. To overcome your friends concerns have you had an independent engineer check it over to confirm the safety of the appliance and the installation. Surely a small price for peace of mind, but probably not.

6. Shes taking the small claims route, good.

7. Is this posturing of yours really going to get you into her knickers.

FFS get a life.

 

[big kenneth]

Right...

1.She didnt know at the time he wasn't registed

2.She is not a heating engineer or inspector therefore does not know a good job from a bad job, she got a reccomendation from a friend at work as he had installed a new boiler for them .

3.The Gas board came out when she found out it was illegally installed
And They shut it down .

A qualified engineer came out put a few things right , including the flue and stated it was a rough job and turned it back on.

4.H&S just looked at the evidence and believed/ sided with the lying installer

5.see no 3

6 yes

7.You need to grow up and get a life , how would you feel if this plumber illegally installed a boiler in one of your loved ones homes ?
You defend him like i'm lying about it all ,I came on here for help / advice but got nowt strange forum , i'm leaving after this post so don't bother replying find another target you little keyboard warrior .

If all you can say to someone who's reporting a cowboy who could kill a family with a badly installed boiler or blow up a house " get a life"
well that sums up what type of man/ boy you are and i'd hate to see your work

End of thread

 

[SimonG]

1. She could have easily checked.
2. Should have checked his gas safe credentials.
3. First time you've said that. Just give the full story at the start rather than drop feeding info to match your narrative.
4. Again no previous mention of anyone even looking at the boiler.
5. That's unfortunate that H & S sided with the installer, especially if the initial install was shutdown.
6. Again, try the actual full story at the start.
7. He wouldn't install a boiler in anybody's home that I know. a. Because I tell people to check the engineers credentials before they let them in the house. b. Most people I know would ask for a recommendation of a good engineer and I would only give them somebody who was gas safe registered.
8. If the guy is not registered then he shouldn't be working on gas, full stop.
9. Try working on the people skills, get much further than the stinking attitude you have shown on here. Brings out the best in me too.
10. You would never see my work, my spidey senses weed out the weirdos and cranks when I go to price a job.

To be honest theres just something that just doesn't sit right with all of this. Start with one story, moves to another story, it's just off.

At the end of the day the install had to be shutdown, works rectified but nobody's interested! Somethings off.

Learning point for others looking in on this is to ensure somebody coming into your house to work on gas is qualified to do so. Ask to see 'their' gas safe id and check to make sure that they are qualified to do the work they are there to do.
If you're friend had done this, then she wouldn't have had a problem.

 

[Ric2013]

I think everyone is being more than a bit harsh here, but at the same time, I don't generally disagree with anyone.

The OP is understandably frustrated.

The problem is that, as SimonG has said in post 25, we are being dripfed information. Whether the boiler was legally or illegally installed is not necessarily relevant to the radiator upgrade issue which is what we were originally asked to comment on, but let me give my ha'p'orth. Essentially, if a RGI has looked at the installation, said it was a bit rough but switched it back on (rather than note the system is At Risk or Immediately Dangerous), then the RGI obviously felt it was safe to do so.

There is, of course, a minefield of legalislation pertinent to the original installation being not installed by a RGI, and while we could give advice as to how you should proceed if you want to give us, clearly and concisely, the full details in chronological order of what happened, you have, instead, been trying to get us on your side. In practice, there are plenty of gas-safe installers that work alongside unqualified personnel. While the spirit of the law is that the work will always be overseen at every stage, the law is an bum in that, clearly the RGI will not always be in the same room as they are. So while you may be right that the RGI should not be sodding off early, you'd be equally right that the apprentice should probably stop work while the RGI goes to the toilet. But how can we possibly help if neither the HSE and Gas Safe does not plan to prosecute? It's not going to help a court case if some bloke on a web-forum (that you have previously dismissed as a keyboard-warrior) thinks your friend's installer is a cowboy. By all means instigate civil proceedings if you think you can win, and I, genuinely, wish you both all the best with this.

Reverting to the title question of October, what if you'd called me out to change the radiators (or what would a responsible workman do in this situation)? I would have made you aware that my quoted price related to fitting the new radiators and getting the system running but that I could not guarantee the new radiators would receive sufficient flow as I was connecting to existing pipe work. But then I have worked in a contracts office and have some experience with the wording of £100,000+ contracts so perhaps I cover myself more than is strictly necessary and I'm aware I may lose work out of this. Realistically, however, if the job was to change two radiators then your friend cannot expect a pipework upgrade if that proves necessary.

I think, if the radiators were 'only slightly warm' (and I can't know what that means as this is presumably you recounting to us what your friend - who is not a plumber - has told you) then I would also have turned off the other radiators and seen what happened. This would hopefully clear airlocks and restore flow, but would, temporarily, have the same effect as balancing the system, so we know that balancing and bleeding are not enough. Obviously I would not be able to balance the system if the new radiators are not heating through, so if there is not a problem with the goods supplied and fitted that day, there would now need to be a discussion: what does the customer want done? If the customer does not want to pay any extra, then I too would, reluctantly, leave the job like that. It does, however, sound strange that, however bad the pipework, the new radiators do not work fully when the other radiators are isolated and I, personally, would want to investigate. In the nicest possible way, however, I do ask myself, could it be that your friend may have approached the matter with the attitude that the plumber is " talking cr@p and its his job to leave the job with the new radiators red hot"? Because I have a lot of time for people, but faced with a customer who views me in that way, I too would be reluctant to return to site.