Changing the MCS

[SimonG]

If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing

"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways

Interesting discussion this.

I'm not saying we should stop regulating because cowboys exist, I'm saying the regulating does not work.

I can see the contradiction, but I don't believe the tightening up on renewables is the best way of doing it. If we want to tighten up the industry we should start at the beginning as one of your previous posts states. Training, make it more thorough and the assessments to mean something. Not just going through the motions with a pass at the end.

But I still believe you can tighten everything up but you won't do away with the cowboys. It may get tougher for them but they will persist.

 

[CES]

I don't think its an issue of complaining about tightening up, with MCS the rules are there and the cowboys are thriving due to an ill thought out clause where you can be accredited and not be competent to install or you can install and not be accredited. This is even before the one man band companies have embraced this accreditation.
No one is saying we should have rules for the cowboys and different rules for others. The issue is with the rules themselves that allow this situation to develop.
Can I for instance install a gas appliance without being registered as long as I am subcontracted to a company who is? No.
Can I be registered with a registration body without being competent to install? No.
Can I do this with MCS? - short answer yes. as long as I have a list of subcontractors to use,a quality manual in place and a large enough budget in order to register for the accreditation body, REAL and advertising.
Where is the sense in allowing this rule to exist in this sector?

 

[markfxy]

I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!

 

[MickW]

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!

I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.

1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!

The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys.

I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more.

I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name.

My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered.

 

[fuzzy]

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!

I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.

1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!I'd vote for a single body

The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys. They should be tougher

I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more. Mmmm, not sure, I dont profess to know what to tighten and how but i'm sure it could be better

I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name. yes there should be a better way of controlling, maybe a single body would be better and hopefully cheaper? They dont have enough inspectors, we are paying for a service it should be managed better. I would not agree to stopping it because it isnt good enough as some people seem to suggest, just improve it

My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered. im not MCS so cannot say precisely what parts are good and what are not, but i dont like people knocking the regulation of our industry, some type of regulation is required, as ive said before my preference is through qualifications as opposed to registration. For example, we do our ACS then have to register? shouldnt it be automatic? let the quals determine who is competent and have 1 competence scheme with one anual fee, then add the quals to thata [/QUOTE

 

[fuzzy]

blimey, just read the link after posting and it started with single regulation body, i promise i read it afterwards, it appears we do agree on some things lol

 

[CES]

I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!

That's exactly my point, if no one could subcontract work out then they would have to be trained and deemed competent instead of getting a subcontractor in who doesn't need to be either MCS or even REA listed. Its the QMS that seems to be the issue when it should be about getting MCS companies competent themselves to install, not fill in forms authorising "Joe Bloggs" down the road to install on their behalf.

 

[unguided1]

Just like to say that this might be of interest to some of you guys The Microgeneration Certification Scheme Community

 

[CES]

That's an interesting discussion you started Unguided1. I think Ill be joining that..

 

[eaton]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

 

[dontknowitall]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

This doesn't surprise me. So many talk the talk these days but not many walk the walk. I sometimes wonder if any of these regulation bodies actually know what work is involved when it comes to the nitty gritty of installing major items (e.g. boilers, consumer units, hot water cylinders, etc). It's so easy to sit behind a desk and dictate how a job should be done but quite a different matter when you're at the coal face.

The trouble with today's attitude of everyone covering their own backs is that no one's allowed to bend the rules a little because they fear the one stoopid numpty will not think properly and cause a serious problem. The other 999 workers can make a sensible assessment but they're not allowed to. In the meantime we seem to have to accept that we cannot be trusted.

I have also found that if you ask a question no one wants to know just in case they get the answer wrong which means they can be sued. So once again, the worker is left to carry the can.

Must jump off my horse before I get into trouble ...

 

[MickW]

So, the RHPP has been announced and the grant is available from Aug 1st to March next year. Plenty of time for big firms to pretty much charge what they want, because there are next to no small businesses accredited to do the work at a more reasonable price.

 

[MickW]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

I can't guarantee it, Eaton, but I am pretty much working full time now on the campaign to make MCS simpler for small businesses and I want it quick!

I had a meeting on Tuesday with Gideon Richards, the Chairman of the MCS steering group, and Chris Yates, the man leading the current MCS review.

Gideon Richards dismissed, out of hand, the possibility of exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, stating that it is impossible because the scheme has to comply with European Standard BS EN 45011. To cut a long story short, I told him that I didn't believe that and I have subsequently asked him to show me where any Standard insists that a one man band has to have a Quality Management System. He hasn't come back to me yet.

In addition to continuing with that campaign, I am going to work with Chris Yates on the review with the aim of getting a vastly simplified version of QMS for small business and getting it quickly (a few months, not years).

Small business has already dipped out on the business generated by the RHPP grant announced today, because if they are not MCS accredited now, they will not have time to become accredited and fit anything before March, which is the cut off for installations.

And to DontKnowitAll - I walk the walk and the powers that be know I don't give up easily. I will get there, one way or another!

 

[CES]

I know I shouldn't get personal, But Id love to hoof that Gideon chap just once in the danglies, just for being an arrogant sod.
Instead of sitting on his chorus on a steering committee lording it, he should be doing something to help people achieve the goal of MCS accreditation instead of dismissing any ideas to help the little guys...

 

[unguided1]

I see that MickW and the campaign are mentioned in this months Gas Safe magazine, just Like to say well done for all the work you are doing on this campaign Mick and many thanks