Changing the MCS

[markfxy]

Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.

 

[CES]

I think the issue about tightening the industry up is at the moment its not a level playing field. Big firms may have the admin side sewn up but still use subbys. Small firms dont have the admin expertise so install for MCS accredited firms.
Who is accountable? If you follow the MCS guidlines its the MCS accredited firm, but they will escape punishment by promising not to use a subcontractor who doesn't produce a good job. The subcontractor isn't MCS so will just move to the next big firm.
Put this into the case of a one man band, who is responsible for both sides, they have to provide a good job or they will lose their MCS accreditation as they will ,in most cases , not use subcontractors. Not only that, a bad job will tarnish any reputation they may have.
As has been said countless times, the industry has its fair share of cowboys but don't necessarily think these cowboys all drive vans, a lot of them drive company cars and work in large company offices. It would be very dangerous for the government to think that the one man band is the one causing the harm to an industry sector that has barely started up.

 

[fuzzy]

Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?

gas safe is for all plumbers/gas fitters, not just bad ones

 

[fuzzy]

Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.

Not all one man bands or small traders but rarely do blaggers, poor plumbers go on to build a large empire!!! many cowboys i have come across move on quickly, regulation/registration etc is there to protect from that.

 

[GQuigley67]

surely the inspections of the installs should catch out the cowboys and the bad workmanship ?

 

[fuzzy]

surely the inspections of the installs should catch out the cowboys and the bad workmanship ?

so the best way of controlling is by allowing bad installations and regulating it after the event?

 

[GQuigley67]

get them to rectify the problems or either bill them for the remedial work which was carried out by another sub-contractor

 

[SimonG]

gas safe is for all plumbers/gas fitters, not just bad ones

But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?

I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.

The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.

 

[fuzzy]

i dont think its that easy, cowboys are notoriously hard to get back to a job they have finished.

If we want renewables and installers of them to be held in high regard we would find that hard if we allow poor installations and use a reactive measure instead of controlling it at source

 

[fuzzy]

But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?

I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.

The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.

I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.

I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.

 

[SimonG]

I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.

I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.

Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.

Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.

My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.

 

[fuzzy]

In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control

 

[SimonG]

So all this poses the question of how cowboys persist, rules and regulations are obviously no deterrent so it must all be down to cost!, and if it's down to cost then surely the customer has an element of accountability. After all you get nowt in this life for nothing. If a customer is prepared to pay considerably less for something then do they accept it may be far from perfect!

I totally agree with what you are saying, we need rules, regulations and quality in what we do. But having these will not deter the cowboy.

 

[fuzzy]

Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.

Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.

My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.

If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing

"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways

 

[SimonG]

In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control

Agreed.

Buyt whilst training centres are £££££ orientated, getting bums on seats by questionable measure and not caring about who passes then things aint going to change.
My two recent experiences of training where my OFTEC 2 1/2 years ago and my G3 in March. The OFTEC assessment was a bit of joke but that just maybe how it looked from my perspective, only three of us on it and very much geared to passing at all costs. But I don't know how much of this was because we all new what we where doing, may have been different if there had been 16 of us and a couple of numpties in the group. I got the impression the guy taking the assessments sussed us out pretty quick. The G3 assessment was a full day and I was back in the van before noon having passed.