Discuss Whole house pump and existing pumps in the Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice area at PlumbersForums.net

Hi hope you are well.

I have a gravity fed hot and cold. Hot water cylinder is on ground floor. Cold tank is in loft. I have 2 showers on 1st floor. One is pumped by a pump in the loft. Other is pumped by pump in shower itself. The latter is noisy and I want to replace it. But pressure in house in general is also not great so I would like to do whole house.

1) can I use whole house pump and the existing shower pump
2) will whole house pump give same pressure as dedicated shower pumps
3) some of our pipework is very thin is this a problem
4) is shower power booster and match for stuart turner 3 bar whole house?

Thanks for your time
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By thin I mean 15mm pipes
 
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thanks, but i'm able to do it myself i think , just need abit of advice re the above questions - has anyone got any experience with shower power booster? and anyone know if i can run two pumps in series?
 
“Whole house pump” means just that. Best advice is to read some manufacturers literature on these, or give them a ring see what they advise..
 
thanks, but i'm able to do it myself i think , just need abit of advice re the above questions - has anyone got any experience with shower power booster? and anyone know if i can run two pumps in series?
No not in series. One pump following another=No ? Parallel yes but why not fit the correct size pump in the first instance. It correct procedure to not guess the size you require as well. Grundfoss make a stainless pump as do plenty of others if you mean to add pressure & flow rate to all of your house from the rising main. These pumps have a pressure switch on them and the outputs vary with price.
Of course there are a few single and twin impeller shower pumps that are aplicable to shower supplies. These are usually fitted to tank fed pipework to the shower. some are fitted under a bath some in the roofspace....It's best to study the literature before buying. All the data is shown but the worst thing is buying a too small an output pump and I've seen even plumbers do that.... Usually 3/4" bore is the order of the day but each application needs careful choice of pump.
There are thousands of heating systems with circulating pumps that just do not get water back to the boiler a minimum of 11 deg C (20F) less than the water temp it left the boiler. The data is there for the fitter to observe because boiler life can be shortened through condense forming on the low boiler surfaces when the return water is too cool
 
thanks for your reply. the shower pump i want to run in series is not just a shower pump, its a thermostatic mixer too - it is controlled from a remote control in the shower (i didn't buy it...it was here when we moved in...). lets call that shower "A"

(there are 3 showers in the house - the one above (A), an electric really Rubbish triton one which we never use anyway (B), and another one (C) that i want to replace in its entirety which has a built in pump and thermostat which is unbelievably noisy)

the point being that i would rather not have to remove pump/thermostat A if i dont have to as i would then have to put a new shower in, but i would like to get rid of C and i dont really are about B,

most of the cold downstairs is run from the mains, so i'd need to run the whole house pump in the loft probably, where the hot from the cylinder and the cold from the tank in loft are near to each other / where i can run pipes to them
 
thanks for your reply. the shower pump i want to run in series is not just a shower pump, its a thermostatic mixer too - it is controlled from a remote control in the shower (i didn't buy it...it was here when we moved in...). lets call that shower "A"

(there are 3 showers in the house - the one above (A), an electric really Rubbish triton one which we never use anyway (B), and another one (C) that i want to replace in its entirety which has a built in pump and thermostat which is unbelievably noisy)

the point being that i would rather not have to remove pump/thermostat A if i dont have to as i would then have to put a new shower in, but i would like to get rid of C and i dont really are about B,

most of the cold downstairs is run from the mains, so i'd need to run the whole house pump in the loft probably, where the hot from the cylinder and the cold from the tank in loft are near to each other / where i can run pipes to them
I'm very old now but just a few years ago I bought a stainless none vented Cylinder on Ebay for £110. These stainless cylinders last a very long time so long as they have not been abused. A date will be on them in any case... If I were you I would go down the route of eliminating pump problems on showers by removing the open vented cylinder and fit an unvented one. You can leave the heating tank vented if that is existing or you could do what many engineers do & that is make your heating system 'sealed' as well. The coil in the stainless cylinder might work on gravity but the data says pumped primaries to the heating coil in the indirect cylinder. I presume (hope) you do not have a primatic cylinder which can cause major problems to the whole of the heating system. You have not got a combi I gather from your writings. A clean stainless unvented cylinder with a Heat only boiler is the best choice any good engineer would recommend. Adequate Hot water storage at pressure is obtained all over the place. I've even got two stainless bear barrels welded together which gives super hot water showers. I would not have a combi as a gift due to their unreliability as well as fluctuating shower temps which comes with them as standard. Europe has been a great many years in front of us re pressurised hot water. They have had that for ever... A power shower without electricity and the cost of pumps going wrong at the drop of a hat. If you go for a new UVHW cylinder if yours is old will be a plus and I don' think you'll regret it.
Low pressure on the rising main affects the cold and hot supplies at all draw off points even after fitting an unvented HW cylinder. If the mains pressure is still ow the mains pump can be fitted. They can be heard in some instances when pumping.
The unvented HW Cylinder transforms the whole house hot water. Also the cold to the showers will be similar pressure as the Hot so mixing is more accurate and stable. A Pump as I suggested on the main ( so long as you don't suck water out of your neighbors pipework all would be good. If you can get hold of a gauge test your pressure or your water supplier should confirm what mains pressure you have for free. They keep the pressure low if no one
complains. Nottingham had 80 PSI minimum years ago but it's about half that now... Make sure you have what all the others have because blockages can occur, I replaced 20 ft of above ground 15mm OD that was buried supplying a mates house lately.. He could not believe it nor could I. It is now 25mm OD all the way from stop tap to inside stop tap. These things cannot be not checked.
 
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hi, thanks for your reply.

nope, no combi. they are Rubbish.

pressure in the 2 showers that matter is at the moment really good, enough to warrant spending, i dont know, 500 or 1 thousand pounds on making sure that they stay that way. and if its pumped from a tank, noone , not the water company can interfere with it.

i don't want to be a the behest of the local water company. i had that issue before at my old property. we got the minimum, and that was it. they are building a ridiculous amount of houses around here, and the mains pressure is already crap. it will only get worse, and you cant pump direct from the mains, or with a combi, unless you get an accumulator etc.., so a system without a tank is not a good idea for me. however, the pipe work is very old. im not sure if i want to test it...so, i have a cheap option which is put a pump on one or two things. pumping x amount every now and again is preferable to pressurising everything all the time. this is probably, the best way to go i think? any thoughts?? im happy to be corrected!
 
hi, thanks for your reply.

nope, no combi. they are Rubbish.

pressure in the 2 showers that matter is at the moment really good, enough to warrant spending, i dont know, 500 or 1 thousand pounds on making sure that they stay that way. and if its pumped from a tank, noone , not the water company can interfere with it.

i don't want to be a the behest of the local water company. i had that issue before at my old property. we got the minimum, and that was it. they are building a ridiculous amount of houses around here, and the mains pressure is already crap. it will only get worse, and you cant pump direct from the mains, or with a combi, unless you get an accumulator etc.., so a system without a tank is not a good idea for me. however, the pipe work is very old. im not sure if i want to test it...so, i have a cheap option which is put a pump on one or two things. pumping x amount every now and again is preferable to pressurising everything all the time. this is probably, the best way to go i think? any thoughts?? im happy to be corrected!
But you see you can adjust the pressure as low as you want to in a sealed system. A pressure reducing valve can be adjusted to 0.5 bar if the correct one is chosen. I have some 50 year old pipework in copper and some much newer polyethylene. I was told by the leading merchant I was the first to 'try' it in Nottingham... If you would rather fit pumps that is OK by me but I tend to and always have done thought =longevity.... Mind you our Grundfoss 25-55 is quiet & has been for about 40 years but it has a stainless impeller. The newer ones have plastic ones and some shear off when you don't want them to. Stewart turner are one of the best brands & I think you mentioned them? Salamander have or used to have decent after sales but I don't know if that is still the case. If you are not a specifier you could do with speaking with an honest and very experienced local expert and cover all of your problems. If you have problems that you can cope with for the cold season it may well be a good idea to tackle them come spring.

I thought you said you were contemplating whole house pressurization? Any water system can be pressure limited by the fitting of a pressure reducing valve which of course is before an unvented cylinder =plenty of data on the net. There is a bylaw mind you which states that the fitter must be competent to have a safe installation. If Cylinders are not fitted correctly they may of course end up flat! It's quite upsetting to see a flat cylinder especially for the one who fitted it!
 

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