Stopping dead birds in fireplace

[kasser]

What do you guys do when you encounter dead birds behind a gas fire? Clear them and carry on as usual or fit something on top of the chimney to stop this happening again?

 

[cjg]

fit the correct gas cowl. on roof

 

[kasser]

fit the correct gas cowl. on roof

Is this just advisable or compulsory?
Shouldn't it have been done from the start when fitting the fire, rather than waiting for birds to drop down the flue?
Regulations are not very clear on this...

 

[cjg]

high y advisabley should really have been done

 

[Ric2013]

'Highly advisable' means what? Is the rule something vague like 'if birds are likely to enter'? And your finding the bird means they are obviously are likely to enter? So at this point the rule applies... ?

 

[Last Plumber]

5.1.5 Terminal design
When the diameter of a flue is 170 mm or less, a terminal conforming to BS 715, BS 1289 or BS 7435-1 and -2 shall be fitted.

Where a proprietary terminal is not used, the total free area of outlet openings on the termination shall be at least twice the cross-sectional area of the flue. Outlet openings shall be such that they will admit a 6 mm diameter ball but not a 16 mm diameter ball. The openings shall either be uniformly distributed around the termination or arranged at two opposite faces.

The free cross-section area of the terminal shall be appropriate for the appliance installed to the chimney.

That is from an old copy of BS 5440:1 (2000). Feel free to read on here!

As far as I know the 170mm is the same but check it yourself. It was the same in 2017 as I recall.

I read and understand the word 'shall' to mean 'you must and you will'!

As @cjg said, I would install one as it will prevent the birds falling in. I have installed them on commercial flues a lot bigger than 170mm for the same reason. When the boilers/fires are off it is a nice place to perch and warm your bum if you're a bird. Once that blast of CO2 and steam hits you it's good night Vienna!

As far as I can tell from experience they are still alive but unconscious when they fall in. Fitting one would be a bird friendly thing to do.

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks LP. This will be useful information for my mother who has had her DFE fire ID'd but RGI refused to explain what was wrong with it and then said he couldn't remember why he ID'd it. It may be he just doesn't have the ticket for DFE fires (he's not very good and we'll be looking for another installer), but interesting to know what people will be looking for as best practice even for an old existing installation. In an ideal world, you'd get an RGI to fit the terminal; in practice it's hard to find one who wants to go up a ladder and someone (and I suspect it will be me, me, or me in the end) will have to do it when the wall gets repointed. I've got a feeling it got ID'd once before on the grounds that 'not possible to inspect flue terminal' which actually translates to 'I don't have a ladder and therefore am not equipped to do my job, so I'll just ID the appliance so I can still charge for turning up'.

This is certainly one of those items where I would agree it makes sense to retrospectively apply the modern regulation because compliance is cheap and the risk is great: it's not like an old coal fire where any blockage will be immediately obvious, the bird is likely to be repelled by the smoke, and, in any case, the opening at the fireplace is easy to clear.

Grammatically, 'will' implies a strong desire, determination, or command applied to I or we, whereas (and confusingly) 'shall' means the same thing when applied to other people or to something else. 'I WILL not cease from mental fight/ nor SHALL my sword sleep in my hand'. In British English anyway. So I would agree with your reading that shall, in this context, means the installation must be done thus, and by consequence, it will be done thus.

 

[kasser]

5.1.5 Terminal design
When the diameter of a flue is 170 mm or less, a terminal conforming to BS 715, BS 1289 or BS 7435-1 and -2 shall be fitted.

Where a proprietary terminal is not used, the total free area of outlet openings on the termination shall be at least twice the cross-sectional area of the flue. Outlet openings shall be such that they will admit a 6 mm diameter ball but not a 16 mm diameter ball. The openings shall either be uniformly distributed around the termination or arranged at two opposite faces.

The free cross-section area of the terminal shall be appropriate for the appliance installed to the chimney.

That is from an old copy of BS 5440:1 (2000). Feel free to read on here!

As far as I know the 170mm is the same but check it yourself. It was the same in 2017 as I recall.

I read and understand the word 'shall' to mean 'you must and you will'!

As @cjg said, I would install one as it will prevent the birds falling in. I have installed them on commercial flues a lot bigger than 170mm for the same reason. When the boilers/fires are off it is a nice place to perch and warm your bum if you're a bird. Once that blast of CO2 and steam hits you it's good night Vienna!

As far as I can tell from experience they are still alive but unconscious when they fall in. Fitting one would be a bird friendly thing to do.

All this is about terminal design for flues less than 170mm.
No terminal is required for larger flues. I suspect the logic is that the flue is so big birds and anything else won't get trapped within?
In any case, I think a terminal or bird guard should be mandatory for all chimneys of all sizes. It's not a big deal and will save lives (human and animal).

 

[kasser]

It may be he just doesn't have the ticket for DFE fires

There's no such thing as DFE ticket, just a ticket for fires. If he's working on gas fires and doesn't have a ticket for that, he could get in trouble with gas safe. They view it just like working on a gas appliance without being gas safe registered...

 

[Ric2013]

There's no such thing as DFE ticket, just a ticket for fires. If he's working on gas fires and doesn't have a ticket for that, he could get in trouble with gas safe. They view it just like working on a gas appliance without being gas safe registered...

Thanks. I stand corrected (actually, there's no logical reason you'd have a separate ticket for DFE fires, so not sure what I was thinking, really). So what I meant then was 'for fires'. Could an RGI carrying out a 'Landlord's Certificate' get around not having a fires ticket in a house where one is installed by just capping the gas supply/isolator and then ignoring it on the certificate on the grounds that it wasn't connected? Cause I think that's what he did. Not sure he even gave it an ID - think it was just cap and yellow tape and then ignore it on the paperwork!

 

[kasser]

Yes, he's allowed to cap off the gas supply to it as he's not working on the appliance but it doesn't have to be ID to cap off an appliance. I cap off lots of fires simply because customers don't want them anymore.