New member, can someone help check quality of this boiler install?

[robbb]

Hi,

Having a bit of a shocker with my current bathroom install which is leading me to question the entire work that my plumber / bathroom installer is in the middle of the job ( I posted on tiling forum the extent of the poor workmanship of tiles). Wondered the thoughts from all the pros on here for the boiler install.

This is a relocation into the loft of a new WB 18KW boiler (12 rads and hot water tank). 2 Mira Mode showers with pumps.

Doesn’t look the neatest to me, but does everything look how it should? Anything I need to chat to him about? It’s not tested or on yet so needs finalising.

I’d have expected it all to look better arranged and neater to be honest but safety is the prime concern.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[robbb]

If he says him then I’ll ask for reg.

 

[townfanjon]

Google. “RIDDOR”

 

[helpsy]

Exactly what would happen with a sealed system. I agree that it is better to have the cold water storage cistern at a higher pressure (height) than the F & E, but I asked this question on this forum and consensus was that there is no regulation on this (and, in this case, it would not really be practical to raise the existing cold water storage cistern to a higher level just in case, one day, the coil fails). I would have done the same as the installer has done.


Cistern must be fully supported on close boarding. Which the F & E seems to be. Looks like chipboard or OSB where I would prefer to see 18mm hardwood ply, but perhaps it's a matter of preference. The boarding is on three supports, so it won't be going anywhere, after all.

I am, though, suspicious that the combined cold feed and vent pipe coming out of it may not slope down away from the cistern as it should do. I would also expect the cistern to be lidded and well lagged when the work is completed.

The board needs to be a minimum of 150mm larger than the footprint of the cistern, supporting timbers 350mm centres, inlet one end of tank feed the other, no insulation underneath CWSC.....some of the things I recall.

 

[robbb]

Fitter has confirmed it was himself that removed, relocated and reinstalled boiler. He is not Gas safe. His intention was to get a mate to commission and sign off.

I’m going to contact Gas safe first thing today for advice. Have shut off Gas at meter just in case.

 

[Ric2013]

The board needs to be a minimum of 150mm larger than the footprint of the cistern, supporting timbers 350mm centres, inlet one end of tank feed the other, no insulation underneath CWSC...some of the things I recall.

I really don't think the installer installed the cold water storage cistern (the large one) - just the F & E - else I'd be moaning about lots of things. But this is good information for the OP as it shows best practice for the new Combined Cylinder Feed and Cold Water Storage Cistern that will be needed.

As far as the F & E is concerned:

150mm figure not in Water Regulations and I've only seen it in the Maskrey plumbing textbook so it may only be advisory. I don't know that it isn't in BS EN 806, but EN 806 is for water for human consumption - clearly the water in an F and E is not for consumption. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely certain what the point of this 150mm is, except that it does give a useful space on which to fix pipe runs.

350mm centres for supports is for steel cisterns which can be placed on supporting timbers without close boarding. I can't see the measurements, but looks like the F & E is supported by three bits of timber, so probably okay. Common sense dictates that the platform for a cistern should be adequately supported, and a 50 gallon cistern obviously needs more support than a 4 gallon F & E.

Inlet one end, outlet the other is to promote flow through the cistern to avoid stagnation of potable water - the water in an F & E does not flow through in normal use, and is not used for drinking. In any case, looks like the float valve (ballcock) on the F & E is yet to be fitted.

 

[robbb]

Called Gas Safe. No one can do anything until they’ve inspected the work so far.

 

[helpsy]

I really don't think the installer installed the cold water storage cistern (the large one) - just the F & E - else I'd be moaning about lots of things. But this is good information for the OP as it shows best practice for the new Combined Cylinder Feed and Cold Water Storage Cistern that will be needed.

As far as the F & E is concerned:

150mm figure not in Water Regulations and I've only seen it in the Maskrey plumbing textbook so it may only be advisory. I don't know that it isn't in BS EN 806, but EN 806 is for water for human consumption - clearly the water in an F and E is not for consumption. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely certain what the point of this 150mm is, except that it does give a useful space on which to fix pipe runs.

350mm centres for supports is for steel cisterns which can be placed on supporting timbers without close boarding. I can't see the measurements, but looks like the F & E is supported by three bits of timber, so probably okay. Common sense dictates that the platform for a cistern should be adequately supported, and a 50 gallon cistern obviously needs more support than a 4 gallon F & E.

Inlet one end, outlet the other is to promote flow through the cistern to avoid stagnation of potable water - the water in an F & E does not flow through in normal use, and is not used for drinking. In any case, looks like the float valve (ballcock) on the F & E is yet to be fitted.

View attachment 31958
Looking at the pipework layout an then the photo of your airing cupboard I do think that’s the gas pipe

The bigger footprint is apparently when a thermostat failed(pre having the reset) and was forcing boiling water out of the vent pipe, the CWSC was not fully supported and distorted and the scalding water came through the ceiling and a baby was in a cot directly below and tragically died of injuries sustained. It looks like the feed in CWSC is the same side as the draw off(stagnation)

 

[helpsy]

Surrey flange or equivalent on cylinder?

 

[AWheating]

Tank stand requirements depend on whats supporting it. If there's load bearing walls below then the standard 4x2s and marine ply 150mm larger than tanks etc... If it's a modem loft with no load bearing walls in the middle of the house then it will need large timbers spanning the loft. There guidance available from wras and other publications.

What area is the OP from? Boiler install if really bad, hope gas safe throw the book and him and the engineer that has been signing off his work.

 

[gassafe]

No one has mentioned the hot water tank, looks like the vent & shower outlet connections are wrong... the vent goes horizontal & downwards

The shower outlet has probs been used for the vent but is out of the picture!

 

[robbb]

An in Camberley, Surrey area. Gas Safe will inspect 5-10 days then decide what I can do to get it commissioned.

 

[SavageW]

The bigger footprint is apparently when a thermostat failed(pre having the reset) and was forcing boiling water out of the vent pipe, the CWSC was not fully supported and distorted and the scalding water came through the ceiling and a baby was in a cot directly below and tragically died of injuries sustained. It looks like the feed in CWSC is the same side as the draw off(stagnation)

I was going more along the lines of undersized gas to boiler

 

[robbb]

I was going more along the lines of undersized gas to boiler

As in 15mm supply to 22mm to boiler?

 

[SavageW]

Yes mate

 

[robbb]

Yes mate

What would be usual protocol for getting 22mm+ sized pipe from supply when 15mm is buried in floor / walls etc? New routing?

 

[SavageW]

Yeh re running gas pipework,sizing it correctly from the meter,taking consideration of other gas appliances an the distance.Your original fella weren’t gas safe so I doubt this got considered,hopefully your new guy will make sure all is to MI’s

 

[Ric2013]

The bigger footprint is apparently when a thermostat failed(pre having the reset) and was forcing boiling water out of the vent pipe, the CWSC was not fully supported and distorted and the scalding water came through the ceiling

I've now found the 150mm in Document G of the building regs (though I still wonder whether extensive research resulted in the 150mm figure - or whether someone who wanted to cover his rear end thought 150mm sounded like a good figure).

In any case, while the F & E cistern in the photo is probably okay, it certainly isn't right in this respect. So I take back what I said in previous posts.

WRAS claims that at least 15mm thick marine ply should be used according to BS 4213:2004 (so my earlier comment that ply is probably a matter of opinion may, then, be wrong) but can anyone tell me the legal status of this BS? Document G refers back to it, but not specifically to the marine ply clause. Quite how marine ply is acceptable but T&G boards, or a steel plate, are not accepable, is beyond me. After all, if I put a cistern on a first floor floorboards or on a structural concrete hearth, I would not insist on marine ply between the cistern and floor level.

The irony is that floats for ballcocks on any cistern that has the potential to become warm must comply with BS 2456 (as stated in Water Regs - therefore compulsary), and neither Travis, Plumbfix, Graham, or Center seemed to stock compliant floats as a loose item. I had to order a box of them from an independent merchant in Lampeter. So to expect the average plumber's work to be 100% compliant in every respect is optimistic.

 

[helpsy]

No one has mentioned the hot water tank, looks like the vent & shower outlet connections are wrong... the vent goes horizontal & downwards

The shower outlet has probs been used for the vent but is out of the picture!

You will probably find that is a Warix flange reverse of Surrey flange( maybe to get over copyright)

 

[king of pipes]

Very poor i would say incompetent and boarding dangerous , contact gas safe they have the power to take his registration away or procecute if he is not registered . all the best kop

 

[townfanjon]

Very poor i would say incompetent and boarding dangerous , contact gas safe they have the power to take his registration away or procecute if he is not registered . all the best kop

He isnt pal

 

[Chuck]

Quite how marine ply is acceptable but T&G boards, or a steel plate, are not accepable, is beyond me.

One obvious reason is that the tank support needs to be a material that withstands water, either from small leaks or condensation. Marine ply is designed to survive wet conditions, T&G boards and 'steel plate' are not.

 

[Ric2013]

I intended a thick steel plate. It can be galvanised if you like, but my point was another: that to limit to a specific product is needlessly restrictive and that there are numerous materials that would suffice.

I take your point on T&G, if made from spruce. More likely to warp than marine ply too.

 

[Chuck]

I intended a thick steel plate. It can be galvanised if you like, but my point was another: that to limit to a specific product is needlessly restrictive and that there are numerous materials that would suffice.

I've never seen a steel plate, galvanised or otherwise used in such a manner. Probably because it would cost more than marine ply and be a lot harder to cut and fix.

Anyway, a (the?) key thing about BS documents is that they are specific about materials and methods so that compliance can be verified easily.