Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[Reza]

Please see following, an email which I received from the HSE. Colleagues, we need to make a tough stance in demanding for reassessment of these farcical, non coherent and ineffective regulations. On one hand they say we need NOT be GSRed to do works for friends and family on the other hand they require us to complete the benchmark with full details of GSRed installer!! Please help us stand against these daft rules, sign our petition, let’s take this all the way. Reform Gas Safety in UK Petition

Hi Reza,

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you last night, but you caught me when I was just on my way out of the office.

In terms of the current definition of competence this is captured in COP 20 (see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/cop20.pdf) - COP20 will be withdrawn as part of the current ACOP review but will be replaced by industry led guidance.

The majority of this definition has been transferred into the new revised L56 (see para 58 of the revised L56) - so it hasn't really changed as a result of the ACOP review.

As we discussed yesterday - although everyone who carries out gas work needs to be competent (see the new para 57 of the revised L56), only those who are a gas engineering business need to be registered with Gas Safe Register (see paragraphs 65 & 66 of the new revised L56).

This position has not changed as a result of the ACOP review. The underlying legislation (the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) only require gas engineering businesses (which include the self-employed and sole traders) to be competent AND registered (see regulation 3(3)). Those who are not acting as gas engineering businesses (for example DIY, favours fro friends etc) are only required to be competent. They do not need to be GSR registered.

I know that you and your group find this position incongruous - however the legislation (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) are not subject to this review and are not being changed. The Approved Code of Practice and it associated guidance cannot go beyond the scope of the legislation itself, and so we cannot insist that engineers carrying out DIY/favours for friends should be registered as well as competent.

I hope this has helped to explain our current position but if you need anything else then please let me know.

 

[Reg Man]

There is one thing we all agree on. You can not carry out gas work unless competent to do so. All GSR registration does is legitimises people employed to do gas work to give the customer assurance that they are safe. All the black market work is not right but does not necessarily make it unsafe. If manufacturer's did more using the guarantee stick that might be a step forward. The final solution is the customers responsibility to employ the right people for the right job. So the long term is education of the general public which is a big part of the GSR remit.

 

[Reza]

There is one thing we all agree on. You can not carry out gas work unless competent to do so. All GSR registration does is legitimises people employed to do gas work to give the customer assurance that they are safe. All the black market work is not right but does not necessarily make it unsafe. If manufacturer's did more using the guarantee stick that might be a step forward. The final solution is the customers responsibility to employ the right people for the right job. So the long term is education of the general public which is a big part of the GSR remit.

There are much truth in what you say. Implementation wise, some methods are more difficult than others, educating people I agree with, I'm chasing GSR constantly on that but I get a feeling there is much politics and scandals when Capita is brought into the equation. Even if you do educate people, there's are over 70 millions living in the UK, questions is will utilising the cost and resource to educate that number of people give a viable result! I am not sure if it will. Regulating engineers is another method which is pursued by HSE currently, we've always read the cases in gas engineers magazine, but is the result satisfactory! Over 250,000 illegals gas works but 50 successful prosecution! And most of them are GSRed guys! So you see, the only other option left is reform of the legislation. Under current regulation, neither GSR nor HSE will give satisfactory results, that's because their hands are tied by a flawed political set of rules. When you reform you make both friends and enemies just like in any other sector in industry, but as a long term sustainable solution reform is needed.

 

[Reza]

Look it's simple, I am not suggesting for a minute that being GSRed is be all and end all, I'm not even suggesting that only GSRed people are competent, what I am suggesting is that, putting the technical and safety aspect of our business aside, administratively, our industry is glued together and that glue is the regulator. You take the glue off, it then all falls apart. All our daily activities are tied together by a Gas Safe Registration number, we use it for issuing landlord records, to register an appliance, to call national grid for someone to come and change the governor, to issue a RIDDOR, to issue a warning note, and so on and so forth. You take the Gas Safe Registration number out, you suddenly have to bend a lot of rules. Rules based on which people are kept safe and businesses sovereign. It is for this reason that I consider the L56 as current or proposed contradictory and flawed.

 

[tamz]

We are, or i am, only putting across other opinions for the sake of argument that tbh are much less than the powers that be would consider in making judgements.

In principle i agree with what you are trying to do but you have to look at things from a bigger perspective than a one man band. The big employers opinions will always win as they have a bigger shout so if you are to go against them you must have a very strong argument that you can back up.

At the end of the day it is ALL about money.

 

[Reza]

We are, or i am, only putting across other opinions for the sake of argument that tbh are much less than the powers that be would consider in making judgements.

In principle i agree with what you are trying to do but you have to look at things from a bigger perspective than a one man band. The big employers opinions will always win as they have a bigger shout so if you are to go against them you must have a very strong argument that you can back up.

At the end of the day it is ALL about money.

True, but (a) in what ways does my argument take a stance against the big corporation! And (b) I wouldn't exactly underestimate the SMEs in this industry, over 80% of businesses in our line of work are either sole trades or small firms, maybe even a partnership! You know, to an extent, what I say isn't anything new, CORGI used to do a secondary card and I believe GSR has discussed it with the authorities at some level. It is ironic though isn't it that the very regulation that sets out the bar, also goes on to smash the bar to pieces!

 

[tamz]

1. Your argument will directly affect the big companies. Their widely held policy is no one employed by them can have their own registration number for the reasons i have stated before. If you have the legit registration number you will use it so you would have to think of some idea to still restrict that.
2. SME's have very little influence in what legislation is made. They may make up the majority of the registered companies but they employ far less than the big boys plus they don't, financially and otherwise, contribute to the industry and government bodies. It is the same in every field of employment.

You will have to shout very loud to be heard let alone listened to. So how do you make your voice heard?

 

[Derek Hardman]

The answer to that was in your statement Tamz, you get as many GSR members behind the cause, numbers count, and they make more noise!

 

[Reza]

tamz my friend, and the rest of those who think along the same path. Why do you keep selling yourselves short and go on underestimating your power! The reality is nothing more than what Derek Hardman just stated!

 

[Derek Hardman]

I have been thinking again!! (hold the sighs for a sec, lol), when you call manufacturers for tech advice, they ask for your GSR number, National grid also ask for your GSR number, the reason for this is to protect themselves from giving info out or advising joe public and joe public suing them when they misinterpret the advice (thats how I see it anyway), so, if we came across an awful installation and the customer tells where they were sold the boiler, and if they were advised about installation or illegal installer, surely GSR/HSE could take someone to task for that? I was given such information many years ago when you couldnt do much about it, made me think i should be asking more questions when I come across a bad one again?

 

[Reza]

If I was to be a trusted and respected member of this forum with pretty logos on the side of my name, and I suggested that it is perfectly adequate for a non Gas Safe Registered, all be it a competent Gas fitter, to work on Gas installation for friends, families and derivatives, then shouldn’t it occur to me that it is exactly for my Gas Safe Registration number why the admins of UKPF let me loose here in the first place! It is absolutely no different in the case of working on Gas installation without having that most crucial reference known as a Gas Safe Registration number. Without it everything falls apart. The entire administrative system is based on the Gas Safe Registration number. It is absolutely observed to stay in support of the regulation for if this was to be the case, non of us would be writing and reading comments right now! Or perhaps the admins could prove me wrong!

 

[Nostrum]

The problem is, even if you did manage to get the regulations re-written, the people who evade them will carry on doing so. The regulation isn't really the problem. T&e problem is there is no system in place to deter people from ignoring it. The customer is normally the one who loose out because they don't know any better, so the illegal or sub standard installer takes advantage of it.

No point having a punishment if you can't catch the culprits

 

[Reza]

The problem is, even if you did manage to get the regulations re-written, the people who evade them will carry on doing so. The regulation isn't really the problem. T&e problem is there is no system in place to deter people from ignoring it. The customer is normally the one who loose out because they don't know any better, so the illegal or sub standard installer takes advantage of it.

No point having a punishment if you can't catch the culprits

let's wait and see how this will enravell, but if what I'm calling for even gets rid of one rogue or illegal or substandard, that one case could have been the cause of this. Wouldn't it be worthed?
BBC News - Four injured in a house explosion in Nottinghamshire

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Ive yet to meet any tradesman who ever considered their contract when it came to feeding their family or paying their bills.
Are you an employer or do you work on your own?
Ii'm an employer and would not allow anyone who worked for me to hold their own registration. Why would they need it when they shouldn't be doing work outside their place of employment taking potential customers from me.

Interesting.
I am an employer too (small - just 5'2" - and a hand full of workers) I think what people do outside of their Mon-Fri 8 to 4 hours is up to them.
Also, being realistic people will do other work - even if it is something totally different (like night club bouncer - amazing what people do in spare time)!
Mr TP has always had own corgi in years gone by when he worked for big employers and so have other guys I've known.

There is the potential for conflict of interest - workers stealing your customers - but it doesn't happen much because people know they will lose their jobs.

I know the guys we've employed over the years have done their own work - but they have found their own customers not competed with us. Our locations & type of work could be relevant.

 

[Reza]

Interesting.
I am an employer too (small - just 5'2" - and a hand full of workers) I think what people do outside of their Mon-Fri 8 to 4 hours is up to them.
Also, being realistic people will do other work - even if it is something totally different (like night club bouncer - amazing what people do in spare time)!
Mr TP has always had own corgi in years gone by when he worked for big employers and so have other guys I've known.


There is the potential for conflict of interest - workers stealing your customers - but it doesn't happen much because people know they will lose their jobs.


I know the guys we've employed over the years have done their own work - but they have found their own customers not competed with us. Our locations & type of work could be relevant.

You are looking at this much from the business perspective, much of what we do on site and on a daily basis is centred around a Gas Safe Registration Number, why! Because right or wrong that's just the way the system is setup. If you decide to bypass it, you would have to bypass a lot of other things too! We've already had people suggesting it wouldn't be legally required to complete the benchmark! Frankly I find the sentiment behind that remark dangerous and ill thought! Your Gas Safe Registration number is why you can post comment on this very site. I am having real hard time comprehending that people can even suggest such proposal, particularly given that yet another Gas explosion has now happened in another of our country.

 

[Reg Man]

You may be asked your GSR number, from who ever, Nothing to stop people giving a false number or someone else's over the phone, because they are not check upon just noted, if that. Only people who may check are the smarter customers who may phone or go on line to check.

 

[peteheat]

We have to be very practical when proposing changes because what can be seen as one slightly impractical or unreasonable suggestion can have all the good ideas thrown out.

Tamz has posted the pay rates in his area, Mrs Tara Plumbing has posted some very points about after hours work people do.

Look at both and ask why a skilled person taking home less than £400.00 should be stopped using their skills to supplement their income, are we employing people or using the rules to ensure we have what could be seen to be a type of slave labour?

We can't impose our rules on the lives of employees 24 / 7 it's hard enough ensuring they comply with our own business standards while representing us in customers homes and business premises.

I suggest open the gates for every qualified person to have their own GSR / RGII registration if they wish to comply with the rules of registration, at least that makes them and their installations legal and subject to all of the rules and responsibilities a registered party must follow.

This prevents the truly dangerous parties in the industry from beating the prices down further;

The site labourer / helper who thinks he knows enough to carry out an installation on a Saturday or Sunday.

The DIY who can also be from an associated trade or worse the internet / forum trawling expert who reads posts and says "Ye I can do that".

Bring everyone who is qualified onto the playing field, at least that way the referee can observe fair play or issue penalties where appropriate, it is important to remember that for as long as there are people operating on the sidelines they are outside the system and must be caught before any action can be taken.

A reply to the proposal to allow DIY, friends etc can be answered using the gas explosion highlighted earlier, an explosion in one house damaged how many others?

What happens to the owners of the adjoining properties who may not have home insurance cover?

If the cause was DIY or similar who will meet the cost of restoring the properties or the medical bills?

There are good rules and regulations already in place, maybe it would be better to get all of the interested / monitoring parties together to agree on the code of conduct and then publish a simple easy to understand set of rules (no more than ten or twelve) that the consumer can understand.

Then bring in the fuel suppliers (Gas companies) to take the rules as conditions of supply and to publish the rules on each bill or notification they send to the consumer as they are the ones who have the most contact with the consumer.

 

[Reza]

We have to be very practical when proposing changes because what can be seen as one slightly impractical or unreasonable suggestion can have all the good ideas thrown out.

Tamz has posted the pay rates in his area, Mrs Tara Plumbing has posted some very points about after hours work people do.

Look at both and ask why a skilled person taking home less than £400.00 should be stopped using their skills to supplement their income, are we employing people or using the rules to ensure we have what could be seen to be a type of slave labour?

We can't impose our rules on the lives of employees 24 / 7 it's hard enough ensuring they comply with our own business standards while representing us in customers homes and business premises.

I suggest open the gates for every qualified person to have their own GSR / RGII registration if they wish to comply with the rules of registration, at least that makes them and their installations legal and subject to all of the rules and responsibilities a registered party must follow.

This prevents the truly dangerous parties in the industry from beating the prices down further;

The site labourer / helper who thinks he knows enough to carry out an installation on a Saturday or Sunday.

The DIY who can also be from an associated trade or worse the internet / forum trawling expert who reads posts and says "Ye I can do that".

Bring everyone who is qualified onto the playing field, at least that way the referee can observe fair play or issue penalties where appropriate, it is important to remember that for as long as there are people operating on the sidelines they are outside the system and must be caught before any action can be taken.

A reply to the proposal to allow DIY, friends etc can be answered using the gas explosion highlighted earlier, an explosion in one house damaged how many others?

What happens to the owners of the adjoining properties who may not have home insurance cover?

If the cause was DIY or similar who will meet the cost of restoring the properties or the medical bills?

There are good rules and regulations already in place, maybe it would be better to get all of the interested / monitoring parties together to agree on the code of conduct and then publish a simple easy to understand set of rules (no more than ten or twelve) that the consumer can understand.

Then bring in the fuel suppliers (Gas companies) to take the rules as conditions of supply and to publish the rules on each bill or notification they send to the consumer as they are the ones who have the most contact with the consumer.

Early report from BBC: The family at the property in which two people died as a result to yesterday's Gas explosion, were carrying out DIY Gas work. Wow!

 

[Reza]

 

[Reza]

If this accident indeed turns out to be DIY related, it should well and truly end this debate. Competent or otherwise, the words such as DIY and doing favours in the new proposed ACOP can and will be taken out of context, the result; death and destruction!

 

[Dotty]

It's s very tragic incident but it is looking as though diy gas work could very well have taken place.

If ever there was an example to reinforce the argument for the reformation of Gas Safety in the UK, this is it!

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/general-off-topic-chat/53216-gas-explosion-notts.html

For those of you who haven't done so, please go and sign the petition.

(Although one of the posts links back to this thread so I may have just created a quantum event in the time/space continuum...........)

 

[Reg Man]

DIY or not? What did you do at the weekend?

 

[Reg Man]

First observations of the scene, Consideration, Look at the flue terminal on the chimney and where it is located. This indicates that it had now or at some point a back boiler and fire in the lounge. Look at the main damage. It appears to be first floor which has blown out. So what gas would be upstairs? Gas fire may be, But doubt it. Gas pipes under floor been tagged may be. So first impression is it may not be gas work, Let the investigators come to an educated conclusion.

 

[Reza]

First observations of the scene, Consideration, Look at the flue terminal on the chimney and where it is located. This indicates that it had now or at some point a back boiler and fire in the lounge. Look at the main damage. It appears to be first floor which has blown out. So what gas would be upstairs? Gas fire may be, But doubt it. Gas pipes under floor been tagged may be. So first impression is it may not be gas work, Let the investigators come to an educated conclusion.

Absolutely Reg Man, I am only quoting what's being reported on the news, but as you have rightly stated it is all alleged at this stage. That said though do you guys think we will hear, through the press, as to the causes of this accident! In most cases, the accident makes it on to our TV sets, but unfortunately post investigation doesn't! May be we should use this opportunity to go to media right now. We know there is much wrong in our industry, I have a petition with 90+ credible signature on it and I am the first engineer who signed it too! Whether this accident was Gas or DIY or whatever else, what difference does it make!!! Your thoughts please.

 

[Reza]

And another thing; " How come I haven't got any Thanks next to my name yet " What does a man have to do to get a Thanks round here!!!

 

[DirksPlumbing]

I suggest open the gates for every qualified person to have their own GSR / RGII registration if they wish to comply with the rules of registration, at least that makes them and their installations legal and subject to all of the rules and responsibilities a registered party must follow...

How should insurance and health and safety regulations blend in with this? How many employees you know having a (serviced) FGA sitting at home ready to be picked up for the weekend job? And so on...

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I am off on a tangent - I just wrote a blog that might interest you.
Is DIY gas work against the law? Or is it ok in my own home? | Mrs Tara Plumbing
I have been writing the blog for years it is read by "normal" people - lol - not construction industry guys.

I intended to write this for a long time and I was waiting for the ACOP to come out as I did hope it would make the situation clearer.

Resa - doesn't like the ACOP - we all know that!
But it is so so so much better than all the older versions of the same document - they never defined competency.

 

[Reza]

I am off on a tangent - I just wrote a blog that might interest you.
Is DIY gas work against the law? Or is it ok in my own home? | Mrs Tara Plumbing
I have been writing the blog for years it is read by "normal" people - lol - not construction industry guys.

I intended to write this for a long time and I was waiting for the ACOP to come out as I did hope it would make the situation clearer.

Resa - doesn't like the ACOP - we all know that!
But it is so so so much better than all the older versions of the same document - they never defined competency.

You are absolutely right that it makes it clearer! If people were a bit apprehensive before, now they darn well know they don't necessarily need to be Gas Safe before they start fiddling with their Gas installation. This promotes purchase of Gas appliances from B&Q and such like even more, an idea which I most definitely oppose and will campaign against. The word DIY can and will be taken out of context, anyone with a bit of technical knowledge and couple of years of NVQ under their wings will think they can have a go. I cannot for the life of me believe that you are still suggesting DIY Gas work is the way to go! I bet you a penny to a pound HSE will be changing the wording of that farcical regulation quick smart, but hey, I have the email. As for your blog, I am not sure if it'll be very appropriate to give DIY Gas work a positive connotation, Competent or not, I doubt if the families of the victims in the latest Gas explosion will appreciate it.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

In my view finding ways to prevent those who are NOT competent at all is far more important than how many registrations a competent gas engineer has.

I don't know any breakdown of the stats as to who is doing the illegal gas work but just my impression from local chinese whispers I don't know of any Competent gas engineers doing gas work without GSR (although I am sure it happens) and i do know some work outside their listed competences.

I hear of loads and loads of gas work done by people who are NOT gas engineers and NOT plumbers at all. The ones I hear about are done by guys who are in other construction trades.

Perhaps my impression is not representative of the whole picture.

I think some people (DIY at home ) don't realise what they are doing is wrong - so better education - labels on products, Adverts etc could help.
But the general builders should know better - so they are deliberately breaking the law.

 

[Reza]

I hear of loads and loads of gas work done by people who are NOT gas engineers and NOT plumbers at all. The ones I hear about are done by guys who are in other construction trades.

Yes your information is correct.

Perhaps my impression is not representative of the whole picture.

This is also correct, it certainly isn't limited to just builders.

I think some people (DIY at home ) don't realise what they are doing is wrong - so better education - labels on products, Adverts etc could help.
But the general builders should know better - so they are deliberately breaking the law.

Education won't work when the cost of living has gone up 10-fold. More and more DIYers are having a go at mending their boilers. This is a fact.

 

[Reg Man]

Its all about balance. How far do you regulate the industry before it gets an intolerable machine. I think that if all gas appliances sold were registered as the TV's are, this would be a good move. As for the Gas safety (installation and use) Regulations, its quite clear. Can't carry out gas work unless competent to do so. If employed, you must be a member of the approved body (GSR). Outside of that it's up to the HSE and GSR to pursue illegal activity and for HSE to prosecute when necessary. In some respects there is a lot that our industry can do to help these agencies track down and carry out enforcement. I believe that many can't be bothered and many that whinge about the illegals. It may be that many feel that the agencies are not approachable.