Lead Gas pipe replacement issues

[Marco]

Sorry for the long post, but sods law the first gas pipe replacement I get is far from straightforward….

I went to look at a job earlier this week where the homeowner moved in a few weeks ago and wants to replace a section of sagging lead gas pipe ready for new fire in future, and cap off a 2nd fire which is not required.

I went to measure up to price the job. Now done the calcs, but there are a few issues and no sure of next steps?

There’s an R5 Meter with around 300mm of 15mm copper off then ½” lead, with T’s off to following

Currently:

4 gas appliances-

cooker – 15mm gas supply
Fire 1 – T’s off from above cooker supply in ½” lead under floor (can’t access initially) then accessible in cellar. Badly clipped and this has propted call from customer.
Fire 2 – T’s off from ½:” lead supply to Fire 1 above accessible in celar.
Condensing boiler – fitted 15mths ago with 15mm gas supply against MI’s which state 22mm min required!

Customer wants:

cooker - leave alone
Fire 1 – replace lead with copper, capped off, ready for new fire in future
Fire 2 – cap off ready to be removed
Condensing boiler – leave alone.

ie set up ready for 3 appliances for sizing puposes.

Issues:

Cooker – 16.4Kw (1.48M3/hr), equivalent length 6.6M X 3 sections - 15mm copper pipe way under sized even if no other pipe T’s off it. NCS? AR? Then price to upgradeto 22mm
Fire 1 – He wanted the lead replacing in the cellar, but pipe sizing problem above. so either a) uprate supply to cooker to 22mm, then T off to the fire in 15mm.b) uprate supply to 22mm and run separate supply to fire 1 location. Currently NCS/AR
Fire 2 – to be capped off, but currently pipe under sized. Currently NCS/AR
Condensing boiler – New owner has receipt for boiler install and wants to take up the issue with the previous fitters! Currently NCS/AR

So what do I do next?!

I’m obviously off site now but multiple NCS (at best) so should cap off meter? Do I request access to do this? Not a good start though with a new customer! Speak to Gas Safe?

Meanwhile I want to give a price for the job, but am in limbo. Can I work on a section of the installation, leaving the boiler section alone until he agrees a way forward with the previous installer?

Final question – I’ve never worked on lead gas pipe before so a bit wary if a needed to cap off or join into the lead. The Corgi book says you can’t use compression fittings designed for water weight lead pipework. Does that rule out all leadlock type fittings? What’s the difference between 6lb and 7lb ½” lead pipe? Does that just leave a lead to copper pipe soldered joint? Help!

Cheers in advance

 

[metaldust9]

multiple NCS adds up to AR above 2 or more i think ,so you need ask them can you cap it off then a label and give them a safety warning notice to cover yourself. sounds like it needs a new gas main as ye carnt join on to lead, you can leave it in place if theres no issues with it but once you cut it you carnt re use it, against regs ,dont cap the lead off, do it at the meter,if the boiler needs 22mm then thats a new gas main anyway plus coming off near the meter to cover everything else in 15 mm

 

[Blackcatgas]

New copper gas pipe needed, maybe even 28mm for the first bit.
Just because youve quoted for the job and maybe got it wrong (we all do that) doesnt then mean that you have to then do the extra work involved at your time and expense, tell the customer the problem, if they then say "well you said......... etc" then your still not obliged to do it, walk away.... If they still give you some mouth then pm me thier number and il give them some random abuse all next week as iam off.

 

[mikeygas]

Multiple NCS leading to upgrading an appliance to AR are only applicable on flueing and ventilation issues, otherwise loads of appliances would be getting switched off.

 

[metaldust9]

yep ye right mikeygas but think if you read into it a bit more in the viper book it says anything that is ncs that could lead to AR ads to the tot up anything on gas pipework side I,D

 

[tamz]

Low inlet pressure on boiler but proper working pressure NCS
No terminal guard NCS
No bonding NCS
No sleeveing on pipework NCS
Flue discharge over a boundary NCS
Meter regularor no seal NCS

There is 6 NCS which altogether add up to WGAF

Stewed tea and no biscuits NCS escalated to i'll find some excuse to cap it off

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

or as transco sometimes do coafo

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Daniel pls explain COAFO ??
Tom pls explain WGAF ??

 

[tamz]

Daniel pls explain COAFO ??
Tom pls explain WGAF ??

Puddle would pull us up if we explained. Use your immagination.
Clues
Cap off
Who gives

 

[Reg Man]

Personaly I would not get involved if custard want's to leave all that lovely lead in place. The lead has served its purpose for many years but there maybe an increased risk of pipe failure with obvious consequencies. Its your engineering judgement at the end of the day. You seem to have some concerns, otherwise you would not have raised the question.

 

[midge]

Reg is quite correct. Most lead used as internal pipework (as opposed to meter connections) is Comosition pipe (Compo) which is thin walled and tin coated.
Very brittle and prone to splitting. Replace all or walk away.

 

[Marco]

Thanks for all the replies. My main concern was should I have AR/ID'd it but after the pearls of wisdom (as always!) and me re-reading corgi books etc, yep it looks like its multiple NCS, but as no fluing/ venting issues it stays at that. So feel a bit better! Not sent price yet as until new best way forward wasn't sure what to price up.
So now will issue a NCS warning notice and recommend that the appliances are gas rated to see if AR, if he chooses not to upgrade pipework?
Also price up to replace all pipes with correctly sized copper, except one to boiler, but flag that it was fitted against MI’s and he could seek advice from Gas safe if previous installers are not responsive? If I was to work on replacing the pipework from the meter to the 15mm copper to the boiler, I reakon I would need to warn the customer that I would need rate the boiler after, and if it was below minimum heat input then it would have to be AR’d. Does that seem a reasonable approach?
Also they haven’t chosen a new gas fire yet – I was going to base the sizing on 7Kw, do you reakon that ok or a bit low? Not sure if there are any fire sizing guidelines?
P.S I’ve ordered a Turnpin off Ebay to practice lead copper jointing on some scrap pipes for any future needs! I enjoyed the lead weathering element of the level 2 course so thought I’d give it a go as won’t always to be able to use a lead lock even on non gas work.

 

[tamz]

If you are upgrading and replacing the pipe it must be sized to suit the load which may mean a bit of 28mm.
Although it was the responsibility of the boiler installer to correctly size the supply, if the customer succeeds in getting them back they will probably run a new supply from the meter straight to the boiler and leave the rest of the installation as is. You would then still have to upgrade the other parts and if you used the new boiler supply (if he got them back) it may need upgrading too to take the intended load.
You first need to talk to the customer and see how he wants to proceed. Either you do the lot or he trys to get the boiler installers back then you take it from there.

You CAN join on to existing compo pipe but whether you have the skills to do so is another matter which is why it is discouraged. You can't use leadloks and a turnpin will be of little use to you. A bolt may be but i'm not going to go into how to use it.

From BS6891

6.1 General
Materials used for gas installation pipes and fittings shall conform to the British Standards listed
in 6.2, 6.3, 6.4, 6.5 and/or 6.6, as appropriate.
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 6.1
When selecting materials for use as installation pipes, consideration should be given to strength, appearance, cost and the need for protection against corrosion (see Clause 9). The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 [1] state that lead or lead alloy pipes supplying gas are not to be installed.
However, historically, lead pipes were used to install gas meters and lead alloy pipes (known as lead composition pipes) were installed as installation pipes and can still be found in old housing stock. Providing this material is in good condition, sound, well supported and is of adequate size, connection may be made to steel or copper pipework using appropriate fittings (see Clause 7).

8.3.3 Connecting lead composition pipes
When lead composition pipes are encountered and any connection joint has to be made, then only a soldered cup joint onto copper pipe or a suitable brass union fitting shall be made. Compression fittings designed for jointing water weight lead pipework shall not be used.
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 8.3.3
It is essential that care be taken when soldering a joint onto lead composition pipework as blow lamps might provide too much heat at the joint.
Lead solder should be used for this purpose. It is essential that joints be mechanically strong and gas tight.

 

[Marco]

Update: phoned customer to see when I could drop off estime (for replacing all pipework) and Advice note of NCS, and he kicked off and refused saying he only wanted blah blah, not any paperwork to be signed! He asked me to email estimate - I have, and I said was obliged to inform him of multiple NCS so will Post to him (recorded delvery!). He said he was also waiting to get a price from the firm who had installed the boiler with undersized pipework and had just serviced it and said there was no problem! I advised him to speak to gas safe if he wanted an impartial view, but he wants to call worcester bosch as they are supposed to be registered installers with them! If he ever gets in touch, I will be booked up for some time!! oh well the learning continues.

 

[tamz]

Leave them to each other. Live and learn.