Hot water from Valliant Boiler

[Margaret T]

A brand new valliant ecotec 618 boiler was installed less than 6 months old. We started experiencing no hot water from the 4th month. The only way to have hot water is by having both the heating and hot water switched on together. Given hot weather in the UK last week, we switched off the heating but then found there to be no hot water. Or the alternative way to have hot water is leaving the immersion switch on constantly.

My questions are:
1. Is this correct?
2. Should the immersion switch be on constantly?
3. Must both heater and hot water be switched on together in order to get hot water? We don't need the heater on especially in the summer months.
4. What could be the problem?

Any ideas, please?

Thanks a lot

Margaret

Background
The Valliant boiler located kitchen ground floor is connected to a blue hot water cylinder on the first-floor air cupboard. A new hive system controller.
On installation, whole house new radiators were installed and power flushed, 2 new zone valves plus magnetic filter installed. Both the valiant and hive is brand new. The boiler was installed first. Then the hive was set up afterwards and runs on schedule (e.g. morning 0645am - 0800am) and evening - as not needed during day time as not at home).

From September 2018 to December 2018 - everything was working fine.
January 2019 - there was an airlock
February 2019 - the person replaced a syncron motor on the heating valve
March 2019 - says to keep the immersion on constant
- we switched off heating but then hot water stopped

19/04/2019 - Called British Gas and they replaced the valliant PCB board
23/04/2019 - Valliant attended and looked at Boiler and says no issue with the boiler
24/04/2019 - Still no hot water when heater switched off - British Gas came and can't diagnose the issue.

I wish I kept the existing boiler rather than change to this new valiant with the hive. Everything before was working perfectly until the above.

 

[Margaret T]

Forget Vaillant, the boilers fine and although you obtained the installers info off of their website they won't give a monkeys. They should do though, and remove the installer, but it will be of no concern to them.
Write a letter, recorded delivery, to the installer. Outline the issues and state if you do not receive within 7 days a definitive way forward to correct the install then you will have no option but to employ somebody to correct the installation at their expense.
No more phone calls only letters.

Hello SimonG, wanted to ask, I have an invoice from British Gas for their attendance to the house to look at the hot water issue (as the original installer was not available at the time when contacted). British gas came and he replaced the PCB board but I've been charged for this work, in consideration feel rather unfair with the additional charge when the boiler was newly installed?

 

[Aire]

I don't have many run ins when it comes to boilers under warranty but it is my understanding that if any individual other than the manufacturers attempt a repair, does it not void the warranty?

 

[SimonG]

Hello SimonG, wanted to ask, I have an invoice from British Gas for their attendance to the house to look at the hot water issue (as the original installer was not available at the time when contacted). British gas came and he replaced the PCB board but I've been charged for this work, in consideration feel rather unfair with the additional charge when the boiler was newly installed?

Should have got Vaillant, it was under warranty. Would probably think it didn't even need a pcb board, but I would imagine that ship has sailed.

I always say to my customers with a new boiler, any issues phone me first, if I'm unavailable then phone the manufacturer as it's under warranty.

 

[Margaret T]

Hello, would like your opinion please. The original installer last visited on 30/04/2019 and he said would return after changing the two straw pipes to criss-cross. Before he left, the immersion was switched off, the CH left to run which gave us HW, the Drayton was not clipped onto the CH pipe but the HW did have Drayton attached. He also said to not use the hive. So my assumption is that everything was left 'on' running? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Over this time period, we had HW. However, CH was a bit weird. On 08/05/2019, we closed off the CH via using the hive in the evening. But in the morning the radiators were on and very hot. Having checked the hive, the status was off, but it stopped working late on.

Has anyone had this sort of problem?

Thanks a lot to those who previous replied to my post. I feel lost and not sure what to do.

 

[Margaret T]

I don't have many run ins when it comes to boilers under warranty but it is my understanding that if any individual other than the manufacturers attempt a repair, does it not void the warranty?

Hello Craig, thanks for your response. I did contact the installer on four previous occasions which he attended and the following was addressed:

1. The first visit, air lock in the system and told us to if happen again to turn the black lever in the airing cupboard;
2. The second visit replaced the syncron motor on the heating valve;
3. The third visit advised to keep the immersion on constant;
4. The fourth visit said found a small leak and replaced the red wheelie.

Thereafter, the fourth visit, the HW remained an issue.

The bank holiday approached, we tried to contact the original installer but he was not available and as am sure with anyone, having cover on the CH and HW, British G was booked in. I hope this clarifies as to the above?

Thanks.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

It's quite clear you've got a control issue and an engineer who doesn't know what he's doing. You need to get a new professional in to sort out the situation.

To be honest I don't know why you'd get BG out when it's a new install and it's obvious it's something wrong with the new install and not the existing system. You should have pushed the original installer.

BG shouldn't have replaced the PCB when it wasn't at fault at all and really should refund you for this as the issue you called them out to is still occurring. However I doubt you'd get any money out of them when it becomes evident that the installation is wrong.

As for criss crossing the pipes (Which looks dreadful!), is the flow and return now the right way round? To check this look on your motorised valve on the cylinder (The white drayton box) which will have an A & B on the brass body. Turn the system on from cold and the hot water should flow from A to B on the motorised valve. If it doesn't then something is wrong. (So the top pipe going into the side of the cylinder should get hot before the bottom pipe).

 

[Aire]

Hi Margaret, I feel the best course of action for you to do now is contact another installer. Do a little research and find a competent one. Ask the installer to come round and investigate what's wrong with your system, and write a list of all that he feels is wrong and roughly how much it will cost to put right. Once you have this info, write a letter to your original installer stating that you have had another installer look at the installation and inform him what is wrong and how much you have been quoted to put it right. Tell him you will allow him upto 7 days to come back and correct his work, and that if he doesn't respond or again fails to get your system working properly, you will be getting the other installer back and you will then seek to claim back the cost of this additional work. As mentioned previously by Simon, Do this by recorded delivery, you will then know and have proof that your installer has received the letter.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

If we trawl back through this problem, from my perspective it comes back to two issues:

From the photographs you have provided, it looks as if the pipework installation is sending a flow to both the flow and return terminals of the indirect hot water tank.

It also appears that the two port valves and possibly the Hive controller have been installed in correctly.

Both of the above give a clear indication that the installer of the system was inept and probably not competent.

To correct this situation you require a reputable plumber, to survey the system and to give you a priced proposal to modify the current installation into a fully working S Plan system.

At that point you can then decide how to proceed to get you system operating properly and (just as importantly) how to recover the additional money you have already spent and will need to spend to rectify the problem.

If the sum is large enough, you should consider giving the original installer one opportunity to correct the installation, thereafter engage a competent plumber and recover your costs through the small claims court.

Which ever route you take, to recover your costs, you need to establish a clear base line ( in the form if a short, but detailed report) now of what is wrong with the installation and how much it will cost to correct. It is equally important to establish a base line to preserve the warranty that you believe you have for the Vailient Boiler. By allowing people (BG) to tinker will a newly installed boiler, you are putting that warranty at risk

It may be that you household insurance policy will provide legal cover to assist in your claim.

I feel sorry for you with British Gas and I think that you should challenge them on the basis that they fitted a part that was not needed. However, if you call people in on an adhoc basis you need to recognise that they are going to charge for their time.

When I first read you post, I interpreted it as a control issue - they are generally a simple fix ( either correcting the wiring or replacing a faulty part). Once you provided photographs of the pipework around the hot water cylinder, it became apparent that the pipework has been installed incorrectly - this is a more expensive fix. It is also harder to interpret system behaviour, when the pipework is fundamentally wrong. I am surprised that you have ever managed to get hot water with the cylinder piped in that way

At the end of the day a system like yours is a very common straight forward installation - it is not complex and is fixable, once the scope of work required to do so is established.

Hopefully the above will help you to establish a clear and successful way forward.

 

[Margaret T]

Thanks all. Can the criss-cross pipes (originally two straws) be put back to normal? It was unexpected and an eyesore just as you walk into the kitchen! Why would this be changed to criss-cross anyway? Can this be put back to normal? Seems like decoration with two straight straws at the top, then twidles criss-cross towards the bottom then goes back to normal.

The installer was previously with BG and 13 years experience as displayed/advertised on Valiant website.

 

[Burger]

The installer was previously with BG and 13 years experience as displayed/advertised on Valiant website.

Can the criss-cross pipes (originally two straws) be put back to normal? - yes they can, but it needs to be done correctly and checked for correct operation. As we have said, it’s fixable, but needs doing by someone who should know what they’re doing.

I had an ex BG service my boiler (before I could) and I wasn’t impressed with what he’d left - a boiler that was condensing into the casing and a high PPM reading in the flue analyser.

 

[Margaret T]

Can the criss-cross pipes (originally two straws) be put back to normal? - yes they can, but it needs to be done correctly and checked for correct operation. As we have said, it’s fixable, but needs doing by someone who should know what they’re doing.

I had an ex BG service my boiler (before I could) and I wasn’t impressed with what he’d left - a boiler that was condensing into the casing and a high PPM reading in the flue analyser.

Source: below screenshot obtained from Vaillant website for the original installer
via: Find An Installer - Vaillant
Find your local Vaillant installer
Click here to find a local installer
"

"

 

[Aire]

Source: below screenshot obtained from Vaillant website for the original installer
via: Find An Installer - Vaillant
Find your local Vaillant installer
Click here to find a local installer
"
View attachment 38592
"

It does seem that alot of the public, most of which are of the older generation looks at British gas as the backbone of the UK. However most installers you speak to don't generally have good things to say about their installers or service engineers. Not saying they're all bad, but alot do appear to not actually know what they are doing.

 

[Burger]

I suppose it’s like any company, you get some who are good and some who are bad.

 

[Margaret T]

Morning, in March 2019 we had a shower pump installed by the person who installed our new boiler and radiators. With the note of having CH issue from January 2019, the month February HW onwards. Below within the description of work. Would this affect the pipework of the flow?

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

If we trawl back through this problem, from my perspective it comes back to two issues:

From the photographs you have provided, it looks as if the pipework installation is sending a flow to both the flow and return terminals of the indirect hot water tank.

It also appears that the two port valves and possibly the Hive controller have been installed in correctly.

Both of the above give a clear indication that the installer of the system was inept and probably not competent.

To correct this situation you require a reputable plumber, to survey the system and to give you a priced proposal to modify the current installation into a fully working S Plan system.

At that point you can then decide how to proceed to get you system operating properly and (just as importantly) how to recover the additional money you have already spent and will need to spend to rectify the problem.

If the sum is large enough, you should consider giving the original installer one opportunity to correct the installation, thereafter engage a competent plumber and recover your costs through the small claims court.

Which ever route you take, to recover your costs, you need to establish a clear base line ( in the form if a short, but detailed report) now of what is wrong with the installation and how much it will cost to correct. It is equally important to establish a base line to preserve the warranty that you believe you have for the Vailient Boiler. By allowing people (BG) to tinker will a newly installed boiler, you are putting that warranty at risk

It may be that you household insurance policy will provide legal cover to assist in your claim.

I feel sorry for you with British Gas and I think that you should challenge them on the basis that they fitted a part that was not needed. However, if you call people in on an adhoc basis you need to recognise that they are going to charge for their time.

When I first read you post, I interpreted it as a control issue - they are generally a simple fix ( either correcting the wiring or replacing a faulty part). Once you provided photographs of the pipework around the hot water cylinder, it became apparent that the pipework has been installed incorrectly - this is a more expensive fix. It is also harder to interpret system behaviour, when the pipework is fundamentally wrong. I am surprised that you have ever managed to get hot water with the cylinder piped in that way

At the end of the day a system like yours is a very common straight forward installation - it is not complex and is fixable, once the scope of work required to do so is established.

Hopefully the above will help you to establish a clear and successful way forward.

Morning Brambles, thank you for response. Regarding "I am surprised that you have ever managed to get hot water with the cylinder piped in that way"

Previously with the old boiler, everything was working fine with no issue what so ever.

We then had the new boiler installed in September 2018 and everything was working fine (left to run on the setup Hive schedule). It was only from January 2019 where the first issue started [CH stopped working - the installer told us it was an airlock - and he told us to turn the black switch in the aircupboard], followed by February 2019 - there was no HW and as per the information provided in the original post.

I'm annoyed by the fact the pipework in the kitchen changed, he didn't tell us he was doing so. He was in the airing cupboard for a while then went to the kitchen and changed the pipework straight to criss-cross. Then performed tests to get the HW to work on its own. He tried and looked at the pipework again in the airing cupboard and the lifted flooring touching the pipes determining the HW, and as he had another job to attend to 11:30 am; he told us to leave CH + HW on running (with the CH Drayton not attached to the pipework). He said he needed to go away and have a think and would return, so the last visit was 30/04/2019 and haven't heard since as of yet.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

The work with respect to the shower pump is on the tank side of the system. It will have no impact whatsoever on the flow of water from the boiler to the CH/HW system.

Not being pessimistic, but in view of your installers track record, It is probable that he / she has not installed the pump and associated electrics and pipework to a professional standard.

With respect to the way forward, I would refer you to my last post.

On a serious note, if it was my house, I would not let your installer tinker any further with the installation until he /she had explained to me what the problem was and how

 

[Brambles]

I should have added, that in my view it is unlikely that your new system has ever worked properly - the problem has just been masked by the central heating being in operation.

I don’t understand how even with the central heating on, flow was achieved through the HW tank - but then I have not seen the full layout if the pipework.

 

[Aire]

I really feel we are going round in circles here Margaret. The best thing you can do is get someone else to come check your system over. From the limited and slightly poor quality pictures, we can't see what's going on. There's definitely a few issues, which may simply be fixed by installing the zone valves the correct way round and checking the wiring, but we simply cannot give you a definitive answer on a forum.