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very sad loss of life just goes to show even the pro`s make mistakes
 
I agree, very sad and shouldn't have happened. A terrible mistake that will live with all concerned for the rest of their lives.

I suppose the backlash will be all negative to our trade but it must be said that 'He who has never made a mistake has never made anything'.
 
I know it sounds bad, but it's made worse for us as he was a registered installer. If he'd been a cowboy then there would be no surprise. And unfortunately by the sounds of it this was a genuine one-off slip up on his part.

Probably been rushing through the job to try and compete with the illegal installers prices. I feel sorry for all involved tbh, including the installer, but he should have done his job correctly and made safety his priority.


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And why is the Gas Safe Register (a private company operating outside government, of course) not being criticised for failure here. He was/is a Gas Safe Registered Engineer, who wasn't 'gas safe'! If this was a case involving a death by shotgun, those people who approved the issue of a shotgun certificate would be under the microscope and being hounded by the tabloid press, by now.
 
I was wondering what the fault was too

No word from hse or gas safe yet thou

Prob be in next months magazine
 
I read about this case before, apparently it had something to do with not using the securing screws supplied with the flue? Not sure it the flue came apart though.
 
goz666 said:
Knocks me sick, three years for that.....He'd get less for being a paedophile !!!
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funny how they can always send a one manband to prison but large companies like british rail cause many deaths by failing to carry out correct procedure and all they get is a big fine not just once but on at least two occasions that ive heard of recently one being the potters bar incident and the second was a crossing they new to be substandard

oh its the rich wot gets the pleasure
and the poor wat gets the blame
its been like that for ever
oh wat a bleeedin shame
 
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We do not know the actual cause of this so called co poisoning, if we did we could comment but because we don,t we can not
I wish the chap the very best as he is obviously now suffering
 
now you've mentioned screws haven't we had a topic on this before ? my point then was the screws tap into the air intake not the outlet
 
are they talking about the little self tappers that you connect the horizontal flue onto the flue elbow? If so, how would the flue dislodge from the elbow on its own accord?
 
to goto work as a gas fitter and to be home as a killer ,,,feel sorry for all here in this story
 
Is the answer to fit a CO detector with each install? They're relatively cheap. British Gas seem to push them all the time like power flushes.
 
I don't understand how this has happened, if it was a new boiler would it not go into shutdown if the flue outlet wasn't making a good seal. ????
 
Sad story for all concerned.

I can't help wondering that if she wasn't from a wealthy family (which I believe she was) whether the sentence would have been more of a fine as opposed to a custodial sentence?
 
It is very sad indeed and my prayers go out to all concerned. And as some point out, it could happen to anybody. But it also proves being GasSafe does not guarantee good work as we are all human and humans can make mistakes.
 
I still don't get how it came apart? When the flue goes from the boiler to the core in wall and out, there is hardly any room for movement. So how does it just come apart. Unless it was a long run of horizontal flue. This is such a shame. I feel for all
 
mutley racers said:
I still don't get how it came apart? When the flue goes from the boiler to the core in wall and out, there is hardly any room for movement. So how does it just come apart. Unless it was a long run of horizontal flue. This is such a shame. I feel for all
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Me either. Once it's in the elbow and sealed around it shouldn't be able to move. With or without the screws!


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i feel all details of exactly what happened should be made available to all engineers via the gas safe magazine or the website as professionals we shouldn't have to surmise from various news reports the hse must have the full details on file to make available
 
It is a bit unusual isn't it? What sort of boiler flue was it? Perhaps it was a two piece that came apart and leaked into the cavity. One report I read said it took only 17minutes to give off enough carbon monoxide to kill the girl in the shower. That is pretty quick? Was the bathroom vented they usually are? Was the boiler in the bathroom? So many questions but so sad for the girls and fitters family.
 
Isn't a new boiler chucking out this amount of CO faulty, irrespective of whether it's going through a flue or not?
 
Yes I agree dontknowitall, it does seem wrong. But then you never know if the report was right or not. If it was, it should be a great concern to everybody. But then a big combi doesn't half shove out some flue gas.
 
If she was showering the boiler will have been firing at full knacker. We don't know what was wrong with the flue, it sounds to me like the boiler was re-cycling the POC's rather than bringing in fresh air.


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Maybe the flue wasn't pushed in properly. When fitting a vertical flue to a boiler downstairs it isn't so easy to get right first time so I check every new install with a flue gas analyser. If it doesn't quite go in all the way then it will show on the co/co2 ratio or co ppm.
 
that's all i can think it could be. Obviously the installer did not have an analyser. Maybe it's a good thing they are becoming compulsory
 
mutley racers said:
Maybe it's a good thing they are becoming compulsory
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To be able to use, not neccessarily to actually use


The boiler was in the garage; (Independant)

Miss Anderson died within just 30 minutes of being exposed to the carbon monoxide after fumes leaked from the flue pipe connected to the boiler in the garage of the Victorian townhouse.
 
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what's that snowhead, it is only compulsory to understand how to use them? I thought you were not allowed to work on fires or boilers without them? That is what I was told any way
 
You're not allowed to leave an incomplete flue, but people do.

Just because people are trained doesn't mean they always abide by the training.
 
mutley racers said:
what's that snowhead, it is only compulsory to understand how to use them? I thought you were not allowed to work on fires or boilers without them? That is what I was told any way
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You need the CPA1 qualification, but you don't legally have to own/use an analyser.


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Hello all, there will be an article about this prosecution in the next Registered Gas Engineer magazine, including a look at the specific technical issues. The issue is being finalised now and the magazine posted out at the end of the month.

GasSafePR
 
Thanks for the heads up. I'm sure we'll all be reading with particular interest.


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TBServices said:
You need the CPA1 qualification, but you don't legally have to own/use an analyser.


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Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.

The HSE would have looked at the assessment centre that recommended him for certification to check that they are meeting the correct standards regarding the assessments, if found lacking they will also be held responsible.
Rob
 
CCN1 Assessor said:
Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.


Rob
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'If manufactures specify '

I think you will find a lot of manufacturers surprisenly at the moment do no require the installer the use an analyser for initial instalation maybe this will change once one manufacturer is brave enough to make it so

So you intact do not need to buy beg or borrow an analyser at the moment

Think you are guilty of scare mongering here and mixing maybe good practice with legal responsibility to make your point

As for engineer got what he deserved,that is your opinion ,with limited facts,the judge
gave the minimum he could and it seems from reports,if he could of given a leaner punishment he would have,I personally hope with good behaviour ect he will soon be out and back with his family

Imho
 
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Puddle said:
'If manufactures specify '

I think you will find a lot of manufacturers surprisenly at the moment do no require the installer the use an analyser for inishal instalation maybe this will change once one manufacturer is brave enough to make it so

So you intact do not need to buy beg or borrow an analyser at the moment

Think you are guilty of scar mongering here and mixing maybe good practice with legal responsibility to make your point

As for engineer got what he deserved,that is your opinion ,with limited facts,the judge
gave the minimum he could and it seems from reports,if he could of given a leaner punishment he would have,I personally hope with good behaviour ect he will soon be out and back with his family

Imho
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Look on the benchmark paperwork, there is a field to fill in regarding CO/CO2 ratio, at present it is a split between maunufacturers if it is needed for installing them but it is required when perfoming a service.

You hope he is soon back with his family, maybe you could get him round to install a boiler for you when he gets out, what about the family of the girl he KILLED, will they ever get her back, no, i know no punishment will ever bring her back but should he just be allowed to carry on as if nothing had happened.
 
CCN1 Assessor said:
Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.

The HSE would have looked at the assessment centre that recommended him for certification to check that they are meeting the correct standards regarding the assessments, if found lacking they will also be held responsible.
Rob
Click to expand...

I think you are being a bit tough on the guy here Rob. I can't say that I am not guilty with regard to missing the odd screw on a flue over the last three decades, however I am sure that more will come out in due course - we don't know the full facts about the case yet.

However, with regard the centre, how can they be liable? They have no control over the choices people make once they have been assessed.

In addition, you infer that you do not take short cuts - perhaps think about the CCN1 and ACS - isn't this just a short-cut? Maybe you are guilty of a few of these short-cuts of your own! You are the responsible person in the assessment centre, if you are certain all your ACS test instruments are accurate, then sleep easy. However, I think otherwise.
 
Ideal specifically state in the logic manual that a flue gas analysis is not required on a new install due to the boiler being checked at the factory. If it were a service, that's a different story.

Realistically the guy was in a rush, whacked the thing on the wall, got it piped and then forgot to finish the flue. Obviously he would never admit such a thing, if I am honest i'm not sure I would knowing the potential punishment, and I consider myself an honest person.

I kinda feel for the guy but it hammers home the responsibility every one of us has on our shoulders.

It also, in my opinion, should make the public realise that because of said responsibility and the potentials if you slip up, warrants a fair price for all installers. ( of all fuel types) This guy had killed someone and gone to prison trying to earn a living, not likely to happen to your average secretary or IT consultant.

I agree with above comments though, now CPA is mandatory, every new boiler sshould be checked, the same as a PDI on a new car, it takes minutes and could have saved this girls life.
 
I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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Regardless of what the MI's state, it's good practice to FGA a new boiler and takes two minutes, and for the piece of mind it gives then its worth the effort.
as for the bloke who has been prosecuted, of course I feel sorry for him, and by the sounds of it, it was a one off mistake from a trustworthy bloke. But, he has made an error, albeit, not on purpose. But he has to be made accountable for his actions. I wish the bloke no ill intentions, but he has done something wrong, maybe for some the guilt he'll feel for the rest of his life is enough, but for others it won't be.
We still don't know all the facts so can't really make a full judgement on this yet, it will be interesting reading note the gas safe mag next month, so we will just have to wait and see.
everyone has their opinion, which is what makes this such a difficult subject to discuss and agree on.
personally if it is just an honest mistake then I feel the punishment fits the crime, coupled with the guilt he will be feeling makes it enough for me. But until all the facts are known, we can't make a full judgement.
 
villa_tom said:
Regardless of what the MI's state, it's good practice to FGA a new boiler and takes two minutes, and for the piece of mind it gives then its worth the effort.
as for the bloke who has been prosecuted, of course I feel sorry for him, and by the sounds of it, it was a one off mistake from a trustworthy bloke. But, he has made an error, albeit, not on purpose. But he has to be made accountable for his actions. I wish the bloke no ill intentions, but he has done something wrong, maybe for some the guilt he'll feel for the rest of his life is enough, but for others it won't be.
We still don't know all the facts so can't really make a full judgement on this yet, it will be interesting reading note the gas safe mag next month, so we will just have to wait and see.
everyone has their opinion, which is what makes this such a difficult subject to discuss and agree on.
personally if it is just an honest mistake then I feel the punishment fits the crime, coupled with the guilt he will be feeling makes it enough for me. But until all the facts are known, we can't make a full judgement.
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I agree on all counts.


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Clanger said:
I think you are being a bit tough on the guy here Rob. I can't say that I am not guilty with regard to missing the odd screw on a flue over the last three decades, however I am sure that more will come out in due course - we don't know the full facts about the case yet.

However, with regard the centre, how can they be liable? They have no control over the choices people make once they have been assessed.

In addition, you infer that you do not take short cuts - perhaps think about the CCN1 and ACS - isn't this just a short-cut? Maybe you are guilty of a few of these short-cuts of your own! You are the responsible person in the assessment centre, if you are certain all your ACS test instruments are accurate, then sleep easy. However, I think otherwise.
Click to expand...


We are held responsible for 6 years after the assessment if we let someone through that is not competent, the HSE will look at all the factors when investigating an inccident.
CPA1 is mandatory, you HAVE to hold it from the 1st april or your CCN1 is invalid so if that is the case WHY is it not a requirement to have AND use one, answer, it is required.
I am not "scare mongering" this guy killed someone, now maybe he did just "forget" to install the screws, maybe he couldn't be bothered it doesn't matter as either way the result is still the same, should he be punished, I believe yes, perhaps this will make other "forgetful" engineers remember in future or think twice before just throwing them in their tool box.
Worcester Bosch REQUIRE the use of a analyser when servicing, Alpha REQUIRE the use of an analyser when installing a boiler as do Keston, no you are not expected to adjust them as they are factory set BUT we know that things can go out of calibration in transit, but you are required to check them when commissioning.
I am CERTAIN that all of out test equipment is accurate, we have to have it calibrated/tested, in addition to that we are constantly checking it ourselves, we also have to be assessed, both in house and external, we do not take shortcuts due to the nature of the "game" we play, if someone is not performing as they should then they are failed, I failed one today for that reason, WE CANNOT AND DO NOT TAKE SHORTCUTS, by the way you are talking you do or miss the odd thing, how would you sleep if this had happened to you?
 
TBServices said:
I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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Yes I am an assessor with over 30 years in the trade to go with it, my collegue has over 40 years in the trade, our IV has over 40 years in the trade

The guy may have been "unfortunate" as you say but that is the problem in this industry, as has been said with most other jobs/career's a mistake does not cost people their life, if we make a mistake it can and will, I personally think he got off very lightly and was lucky with the judge he had, maybe it was a genuine oversight but one thing is for sure he will NEVER do it again if he is allowed to ever work on gas again and I really hope that other engineers will learn from him.
If it is not as you say a requirement then WHY do you do it, to make sure it is SAFE I suspect, if so good for you, if people are only installing boilers of one make that doesnt state POC should be checked, never working on cookers, space heaters etc they may get away without having a FGA for now but not for long.
Another centre we deal with had a brand new cooker delivered, 9 different engineers assessed the flame picture on the grill and said they would pass it, when the POC's were checked it was putting out 23,000 ppm CO, so we can see that even a new appliance does need to be checked.
 
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Sorry but I've already been assessed, by someone . And I was also subject to INTERNAL VERIFICATION. Thanks for your concern.

Seems strange to me to join a forum with the sole intention of acting so aggressive in a single thread.

I FGA for a number of reasons. Safety being first, I'm not saying it shouldnt be done, I'm saying it's NOT A REQUIREMENT, unless stated otherwise, which is very rare.

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