Heard the news today?

[Deleted member 25704]

Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.

The HSE would have looked at the assessment centre that recommended him for certification to check that they are meeting the correct standards regarding the assessments, if found lacking they will also be held responsible.
Rob

I think you are being a bit tough on the guy here Rob. I can't say that I am not guilty with regard to missing the odd screw on a flue over the last three decades, however I am sure that more will come out in due course - we don't know the full facts about the case yet.

However, with regard the centre, how can they be liable? They have no control over the choices people make once they have been assessed.

In addition, you infer that you do not take short cuts - perhaps think about the CCN1 and ACS - isn't this just a short-cut? Maybe you are guilty of a few of these short-cuts of your own! You are the responsible person in the assessment centre, if you are certain all your ACS test instruments are accurate, then sleep easy. However, I think otherwise.

 

[Nostrum]

Ideal specifically state in the logic manual that a flue gas analysis is not required on a new install due to the boiler being checked at the factory. If it were a service, that's a different story.

Realistically the guy was in a rush, whacked the thing on the wall, got it piped and then forgot to finish the flue. Obviously he would never admit such a thing, if I am honest i'm not sure I would knowing the potential punishment, and I consider myself an honest person.

I kinda feel for the guy but it hammers home the responsibility every one of us has on our shoulders.

It also, in my opinion, should make the public realise that because of said responsibility and the potentials if you slip up, warrants a fair price for all installers. ( of all fuel types) This guy had killed someone and gone to prison trying to earn a living, not likely to happen to your average secretary or IT consultant.

I agree with above comments though, now CPA is mandatory, every new boiler sshould be checked, the same as a PDI on a new car, it takes minutes and could have saved this girls life.

 

[TBServices]

I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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[villa_tom]

Regardless of what the MI's state, it's good practice to FGA a new boiler and takes two minutes, and for the piece of mind it gives then its worth the effort.
as for the bloke who has been prosecuted, of course I feel sorry for him, and by the sounds of it, it was a one off mistake from a trustworthy bloke. But, he has made an error, albeit, not on purpose. But he has to be made accountable for his actions. I wish the bloke no ill intentions, but he has done something wrong, maybe for some the guilt he'll feel for the rest of his life is enough, but for others it won't be.
We still don't know all the facts so can't really make a full judgement on this yet, it will be interesting reading note the gas safe mag next month, so we will just have to wait and see.
everyone has their opinion, which is what makes this such a difficult subject to discuss and agree on.
personally if it is just an honest mistake then I feel the punishment fits the crime, coupled with the guilt he will be feeling makes it enough for me. But until all the facts are known, we can't make a full judgement.

 

[TBServices]

Regardless of what the MI's state, it's good practice to FGA a new boiler and takes two minutes, and for the piece of mind it gives then its worth the effort.
as for the bloke who has been prosecuted, of course I feel sorry for him, and by the sounds of it, it was a one off mistake from a trustworthy bloke. But, he has made an error, albeit, not on purpose. But he has to be made accountable for his actions. I wish the bloke no ill intentions, but he has done something wrong, maybe for some the guilt he'll feel for the rest of his life is enough, but for others it won't be.
We still don't know all the facts so can't really make a full judgement on this yet, it will be interesting reading note the gas safe mag next month, so we will just have to wait and see.
everyone has their opinion, which is what makes this such a difficult subject to discuss and agree on.
personally if it is just an honest mistake then I feel the punishment fits the crime, coupled with the guilt he will be feeling makes it enough for me. But until all the facts are known, we can't make a full judgement.

I agree on all counts.


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[dancinplumba]

Remeha require use of fga for commission to set the gas/air ratio

 

[Nostrum]

Maybe that the boiler he fitted then..

 

[CCN1 Assessor]

I think you are being a bit tough on the guy here Rob. I can't say that I am not guilty with regard to missing the odd screw on a flue over the last three decades, however I am sure that more will come out in due course - we don't know the full facts about the case yet.

However, with regard the centre, how can they be liable? They have no control over the choices people make once they have been assessed.

In addition, you infer that you do not take short cuts - perhaps think about the CCN1 and ACS - isn't this just a short-cut? Maybe you are guilty of a few of these short-cuts of your own! You are the responsible person in the assessment centre, if you are certain all your ACS test instruments are accurate, then sleep easy. However, I think otherwise.

We are held responsible for 6 years after the assessment if we let someone through that is not competent, the HSE will look at all the factors when investigating an inccident.
CPA1 is mandatory, you HAVE to hold it from the 1st april or your CCN1 is invalid so if that is the case WHY is it not a requirement to have AND use one, answer, it is required.
I am not "scare mongering" this guy killed someone, now maybe he did just "forget" to install the screws, maybe he couldn't be bothered it doesn't matter as either way the result is still the same, should he be punished, I believe yes, perhaps this will make other "forgetful" engineers remember in future or think twice before just throwing them in their tool box.
Worcester Bosch REQUIRE the use of a analyser when servicing, Alpha REQUIRE the use of an analyser when installing a boiler as do Keston, no you are not expected to adjust them as they are factory set BUT we know that things can go out of calibration in transit, but you are required to check them when commissioning.
I am CERTAIN that all of out test equipment is accurate, we have to have it calibrated/tested, in addition to that we are constantly checking it ourselves, we also have to be assessed, both in house and external, we do not take shortcuts due to the nature of the "game" we play, if someone is not performing as they should then they are failed, I failed one today for that reason, WE CANNOT AND DO NOT TAKE SHORTCUTS, by the way you are talking you do or miss the odd thing, how would you sleep if this had happened to you?

 

[CCN1 Assessor]

I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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Yes I am an assessor with over 30 years in the trade to go with it, my collegue has over 40 years in the trade, our IV has over 40 years in the trade

The guy may have been "unfortunate" as you say but that is the problem in this industry, as has been said with most other jobs/career's a mistake does not cost people their life, if we make a mistake it can and will, I personally think he got off very lightly and was lucky with the judge he had, maybe it was a genuine oversight but one thing is for sure he will NEVER do it again if he is allowed to ever work on gas again and I really hope that other engineers will learn from him.
If it is not as you say a requirement then WHY do you do it, to make sure it is SAFE I suspect, if so good for you, if people are only installing boilers of one make that doesnt state POC should be checked, never working on cookers, space heaters etc they may get away without having a FGA for now but not for long.
Another centre we deal with had a brand new cooker delivered, 9 different engineers assessed the flame picture on the grill and said they would pass it, when the POC's were checked it was putting out 23,000 ppm CO, so we can see that even a new appliance does need to be checked.

 

[TBServices]

Sorry but I've already been assessed, by someone . And I was also subject to INTERNAL VERIFICATION. Thanks for your concern.

Seems strange to me to join a forum with the sole intention of acting so aggressive in a single thread.

I FGA for a number of reasons. Safety being first, I'm not saying it shouldnt be done, I'm saying it's NOT A REQUIREMENT, unless stated otherwise, which is very rare.

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