Flow rate / regs query

[Gasmk1]

before the install your shower was pumped from the cylinder this gave the 13 L/min but your taps only gave 7 and 5 L/min it is the shower which cannot work from the combi thats my take on this you can only get out what you put in the shower is not the right one for a combi as you dont have enough incoming water pressure.

 

[Gasmk1]

the vaillant boiler will give 13l/min if the incoming cold mains has enough pressure, vaillant say it will give this not that it must have this,

 

[rpm]

Anybody know how much Valliant would charge to take a look at the install, pipe sizes on the water and gas as well as pressure readings?

Just thinking if the customer had a report in their hand then the "Magic Roundabout" would stop.

 

[JD1]

It is very confusing when you are not an expert and trust and rely on companies to recommend a product suitable for your property / needs. They saw the shower before they installed the combi and we raised concerns about water pressure as the shower used a pump and was powerful. Feels like we should never have had the combi boiler and upgraded to a more efficient newer boiler on the same cold water storage / system

 

[chris watkins]

I don't have the document you mention to hand but can look at what is recorded.
This is required to be completed to show boiler has been commissioned correctly as required by Building Regulations Part L
The kitchen taps are better than the bathroom taps yes and the shower is virtually a drip and fluctuates constantly between hot and cold, before with the old boiler it was very powerful and didn't change temp at all. The water from the kitchen hot tap is hot within say 5 secs (as per boiler spec), upstairs it usually takes about a minute to heat up.
I was interested if there was a difference between the hot & cold water pressure at the kitchen sink as this could tell us if there was a problem with the boiler producing hot water rather than the mains water supply.
The flat is the second floor, I don't know the distance from the street.
If it on the second floor & the bathroom is on the floor above the kitchen would be a round 7m off the ground & the bathroom shower around 11metres from the street side
If they install a pump / tank, will this fix the problem?
possible but thats not the issue
Should they have measured the flow rate again before the install?

Were you ever advised about the possible mains water fluctuations ?

We have been 'fighting' with them since the install in December last year, the issue with the poor performance of the shower since the boiler install and flow rate problem has been there from day one following the new boiler installation and has neither improved or worsened. They have been to measure the flow rate again and know it is 7 and 5 when it should be 13, they are saying its not their fault basically, which cannot be the case in my opinon. They say they are within regs and it doesn't matter that they didnt measure again and relied on year old readings, which cannot be the case in my opinon but it would be good to be able to point to something that supports this and I can't find anything via a google search to assist.
We have not signed the install off but we are getting nowhere. I am just really looking for some ideas as to how we can resolve this so we can move on and have a shower / boiler that is fit for purpose.

Who selected the boiler & why ? The installer has a duty to ensure that the products they install (& especially if they supply it) are fit for purpose, if they recommended / selected a combination boiler without due warnings about the possible lack of pressure then they have not discharged this duty.

the vaillant boiler will give 13l/min if the incoming cold mains has enough pressure, vaillant say it will give this not that it must have this,

An important point from Gasmk1- the new boiler may still works correctly with less than 13l/m there is no requirement for it to be supplied with this amount of water, it is just what it is capable of doing, just like the top speed of a car but not many would drive at its max.

It is very confusing when you are not an expert and trust and rely on companies to recommend a product suitable for your property / needs. They saw the shower before they installed the combi and we raised concerns about water pressure as the shower used a pump and was powerful. Feels like we should never have had the combi boiler and upgraded to a more efficient newer boiler on the same cold water storage / system

As above with the duty of care bit, but they can't be responsible of the correct working of the already installed shower I am afraid, unless it is judged that the boiler installed under these circumstances is itself not fit for purpose.

With a chance that the mains supply could be reduced to 1Bar (10metres head) minimum pressure at any time without redress to your water supplier, if you where not warned that the shower some 11Metres up would not work, then they are clearly at fault & you should try Trading Standards.
You will understand that we only have your side of this and most of us on here have had to deal with customers with wildly over expectations of what can be provided for normally a very small pot of money.

 

[Riley]

Well said and I would also be interested to know what they put on the bench mark if they bothered to fill it out

 

[jtsplumbing]

From what OP is saying a combi is not the best choice for his property, and may have been given the wrong advise, His water flow seems to have been an on-going problem hence the pump for the shower, Should just have gone for boiler replacement and kept rest of system, Do you know what sort of water flow the flat below gets ? and can you find out ? could be the whole area suffers from low water supply ! Is this a property that has been converted into flats ? do you have your own Main stopcock out in the street ? or are you on a shared water main ?

 

[Chalked]

This is a good example of why you need to explain the pros and cons of a combi. And the expectations of a customer.

 

[JD1]

Hi everyone, thanks, just catching up on comments. Page 59 - water flow rate recorded as "low" nothing else. No figure recorded but I imagine it was 7 as follow up visit showed after our complaint. We asked copious times before installing right back to the initial visit in Dec 14 the first time we looked in to it about the pressure cos we like a good powerful shower and were happy with the one we had. It was us that specifically queried this. It was queried again before the Dec 15 install by us and we were told it would be fine. We are an old council block built in 60s. It seems like a newer boiler would have just been better (it needed to be replaced as had been here sometime). We thought they were installing something best suited to our needs. I don't know why they went with what they did. From the little I know and comments from you guys, seems it would have been best to install a more efficient boiler in the same type of system.
One other thing I forgot to mention the bar on the boiler itself is supposed to be between 0.9 and 1.7. When they left after the installation it measured 0.7. We have managed to get a bit more water in by opening the valves so it now sits just above 1bar. Hope this makes sense!

 

[Riley]

Was the rest of the benchmark filled out??

 

[Gasmk1]

sounds like you have very low water pressure you could fit a salamader pump to the inlet of the boiler these will give up to 12 L/min Anchor Pumps

 

[chris watkins]

We asked copious times before installing right back to the initial visit in Dec 14 the first time we looked in to it about the pressure cos we like a good powerful shower and were happy with the one we had. It was us that specifically queried this. It was queried again before the Dec 15 install by us and we were told it would be fine.
We thought they were installing something best suited to our needs. I don't know why they went with what they did.
From the little I know and comments from you guys, seems it would have been best to install a more efficient boiler in the same type of system.

Off to Trading Standards with any supporting evidence you have then. If you asked so much about the pressure it should be documented some where.
Why did you ask so many times, you must have had your doubts about installing a combi system?

PS. You may be able to have a special type of pump which is allowed to be installed directly onto the mains (this is limited by Law to 12L/M) but a descent plumber with their Water Regulation Ticket will need to confirm all is suitable either way your shower will never be nor was it ever going to be as it was before you had the boiler changed.

As above or I prefer the Stuart Turner type & one with accumulation might provide better results if you go down that route.

 

[Chalked]

Hi everyone, thanks, just catching up on comments. Page 59 - water flow rate recorded as "low" nothing else. No figure recorded but I imagine it was 7 as follow up visit showed after our complaint. We asked copious times before installing right back to the initial visit in Dec 14 the first time we looked in to it about the pressure cos we like a good powerful shower and were happy with the one we had. It was us that specifically queried this. It was queried again before the Dec 15 install by us and we were told it would be fine. We are an old council block built in 60s. It seems like a newer boiler would have just been better (it needed to be replaced as had been here sometime). We thought they were installing something best suited to our needs. I don't know why they went with what they did. From the little I know and comments from you guys, seems it would have been best to install a more efficient boiler in the same type of system.
One other thing I forgot to mention the bar on the boiler itself is supposed to be between 0.9 and 1.7. When they left after the installation it measured 0.7. We have managed to get a bit more water in by opening the valves so it now sits just above 1bar. Hope this makes sense!

Even though they are not perfect. A combi is a very efficient way of producing hot water. The Vaillant boiler you have is also an efficient boiler.
It's just your msins pressure is a bit low to perform how it should.

 

[JD1]

We have already reported to trading standards (via citizens advice bureau as we were told we can't do it ourselves) but that was a dead end.
We have reported to the consumer ombudsman but they are under no obligation to respond. They have ignored all 3 email attempts the ombudsman made to contact them to discuss it.
We have written to them 3 times, their own complaints policy states complex matters will be dealt with in 10 working days (if you are being generous, you can say this is complex) It's been 5 months and they have not engaged at all. No one ever returns our calls. The call centre don't let you speak to anyone.
Going to court is expensive and time consuming but perhaps that is where we'll get to.

We asked so much about the pressure cos the existing boiler and shower set up when we bought the property used a pump.

We have accepted the shower will never be the same but it is literally a dribble.

It's good to know a pump is an option. Just got to get them to come back. It doesn't seem fair someone else picks it up or we pay more to resolve it, it should be their cost in my opinion due to possible misselling and installing a boiler not fit for purpose but I'm not sure we have the energy for much more.

We will look into pump options.

Thanks everyone.

 

[REDSAW]

have you asked your nieghbours if they have a combi?

if so then and theirs works fine, your house may have an incoming mains problem.
contact your water carrier for a free check you could have a scaled lead pipe or collapsed main!

if you had an over-large or two cold water storage tanks in the loft prior, then your area uses stored fresh water due to local reseviour not high enough or mains supply not large enough. then you could fit a mains pump.