Flexi hoses

[mo7]

Hi

DIYer here.

I had to repalce a mixer shower in an emergency.

There were rigid pipes in place before which I would have liked to re-use but trying to position the new shower which was not an exact fit was a nightmare as the pipes were right in the way so I cut them off and made compression joints with new pipework and then I used Screwfix flexi tails - one 300mm and one 500mm.

I know a lot of pros frown upon flexis but needs must. My only concerns is whether they will stand the test of time.

My queries are

1) I have used Screwfix cheapies (or rather the only ones Screwfix had). For unrelated reasons I have been into Wickes/B and Q and 2 other plumbing merchants and note the flexies are quite a bit more expensive.

Given Screwfix are owned by the same company as B and Q I daresay they wouldn't use cheap rubbish (or stuff that is not suitable) on a critical thing like a flexi hose as mass failure could cost them a lot of money. So is a Screwfix cheapie Ok or should I be having second thoughts? Obviously we know Screwfix is much cheaper than most merchants for a lot of things - so maybe this is just another one of those things.

It is not my house (family member), so for the sake of another £10 I will happily go to Plumbcenter or somewhere any buy another set.

My other 2 questions are to do with whether the flexis are bent too much as I know they are not supposed to be.

HOT TAP

This one is pretty straight forward - I got a bend on it just under 90. Does it look OK?

http://1drv.ms/1VQgJW1

COLD TAP

This one was more awkward - because where I cut the original pipe off - if I had just joined it back where it was the bend would have been too sharp so I have taken it down slightly (also added in an isolation valve).

At this point I have offset it to the side slightly - the reason is because if I went for a 90 bend I felt it was under too much pressure so I have given it more of an S shape - but i wonder whether this is clased as a twist?

http://1drv.ms/1RFjdR1

If I want to get rid of the S shape I can take off the comrpession further back and straighten out - but as I say if I make the flexi a 90 I feel it puts it under more strain.

Thanks.

 

[SimonG]

Looks gash, but it works and is under the bath. The flexis dont look stressed or twisted.

But would be interesting to see the loss adjuster have a look for the insurance company if they did burst.

Why didnt you just use plastic pipe and fittings

 

[mo7]

I already had some of the equipment to do compression fittings - couplings, isolation valves and pipe cutters.

I can do soldering as well but I don't have the equipment and wouldn;t fancy it in such a tight space.

I'm not hugely confident in plastic and take the view that if I can do it with compression I will do it with compression. Doing it in plastic would have been much quicker mind - especially if I had not bothered adding in isolation valves.

As an added complication the pipes are imperial so I had to spend time faffing around fitting a 3/4 olive to a 22m compression fitting on a 3/4 pipe a bit further back.

Its been 2 days and no leak.

 

[mo7]

BTW when you say it LOOKS gash do you mean aesthetically or as it it looks liek it may fail because of all the joints? I did use jointing compound as recommended by various professionals.

 

[plumben]

If it was me I would redo it in copper with soldered joints but if your not willing or upto the task then plastic Speed fit pipe too either compression or push fit fittings, if using compression use the smooth inserts without the o ring and dont use joining compound on plastic pipe,

As to will they stand the test of time, I wouldn't want to risk it, its luck of the draw with flexi's I've seen poorly installed flexi last a lot longer than flexi installed correctly

 

[lame plumber]

How is this for an opinion former. Last month I went to a house that had no ceilings on the ground floor in the lounge and kitchen, the whole ground floor was flooded, the furniture ruined kitchen cupboards wrecked, floors all lifted etc etc cost to date for repairs has hit £20k. Cause, burst flexi hose on the cold tap on the bathroom basin, when the family was all out for the weekend. I tend not to use flexis on any continuously supplied water pipes for the above reason...........................

 

[mo7]

having done all that work I am not willing to take it all out to replace for plastic - what is the point - compression fittings must be fine.

However, I could theoretically take the flexis out and put a rigid pipe in - it just means I need to get more copper - put a tap connector on and then (and the hard bit) - try and get it perfectly back to my existing dead ends.

how do you tend to work out where to leave the tap connector so you know what height to leave i at so the tap tai lcan stil lgo and off - presumably you dont fit a tap connector to the tail and work backwards - as otherwise the tap connector would be too solidly stuck onto the tap tail? there is obviously a bit of art to it.

how much should a tap connector thread onto the tail - that might help..

 

[mo7]

BTW there must be tends of thousands of hosues fitted with these by now - surely if they wre a MAJOR problem it would be more well publicised?

 

[lame plumber]

they are a major problem, they regularly burst and insurance companies hate them, but being diy you just see them as an easy option. You have been warned.

 

[Tjdservices]

If you are using them check that the are at least WRAS approved, also I would use the fuller bore ones and replace that restrictive isolation valve.

 

[mo7]

they are a major problem, they regularly burst and insurance companies hate them, but being diy you just see them as an easy option. You have been warned.

I'm happy to try and convert to rigid if i can work out how to do it.

 

[mo7]

If you are using them check that the are at least WRAS approved, also I would use the fuller bore ones and replace that restrictive isolation valve.

TBH the tap connector seems to restrict the flow to such an extent that the isolation valve prob makes little difference!

 

[Tjdservices]

TBH the tap connector seems to restrict the flow to such an extent that the isolation valve prob makes little difference!

which is why I also said use fuller bore flexis

 

[plumben]

BTW there must be tends of thousands of hosues fitted with these by now - surely if they wre a MAJOR problem it would be more well publicised?

They are a major problem, I went to one last week on a toilet, luckily the home owner was just getting up for work and heard water start running to find a waterfall going down the stairs from the bathroom,

Trust us where plumbers and fix these problems all the time

 

[Ray Stafford]

My opinion, for what its worth.

A good quality flexi, properly fitted, without undue twisting or tension is a pretty minor risk. Sure, its not as good as rigid copper tails, but we all have to make compromises in life. Mrs S reckons I am not as good looking as George Clooney, although personally, I claim its a close race.

A poor quality flexi, or one that has not been fitted properly, or is twisted, tensioned or generally abused is an invitation to an impromptu communal shower.

 

[mo7]

I will convert to rigid

I can prob get hold of a pipe bender - does anyone have advice on how to do it?

I will put a compression tap connector on the end of a pipe.

the issue is how to get the length perfect so i can still thread the tap on but also get back to my supply pipe.

 

[Best]

You are probably not capable of bending a proper offset.
But here is how you do it - hand tighten a tap connector onto tap, (I prefer 22mm soldered tap connector). Use a straight piece of 22mm copper about 400mm approx to push into the tap connector. That will give you a back to back measurement you need to bend to the incoming pipe. Bend it, then try it into the tap connector, swiveling it to one side of pipe it is to join to & mark to cut it.
Why are you using isolating valves below the bath?

 

[mo7]

I put the isolation valves there so that water could be turned off if I needed to do any further work

If I do get rid of the flexi they will come in handy as I will add the new copper pipe after the islaiton valves......

 

[Best]

Usually the isolating valves are never needed and can seize up or leak if not decent quality IMO.
Not needed I believe.
If the pipes are fairly close to the taps, I bend offset bends and job done.
But if the pipes are to one side - like to the front of bath, then job is even easier if you just use elbows. You could try using soldered tap connectors & soldered elbows soldered out of place and then fit them in place, cutting all pipes exactly with a pipe slice to suit brass elbows.
That way they can be removed at any time by just loosening a nut on either side of each pipe

 

[JCplumb]

From the second pic, I can see you have used jointing compound.
This is good.
However, you have used it on the thread where the compression nut screws up.
This is bad.

You just need a smear on the olive where it goes into the fitting, anywhere else is wasting it and depending on the compound, could make undoing the nut more difficult in years to come.
The seal of an olive based fitting is made by the fitting crushing the olive tight between the pipe and the tapered socket of the valve so that water can not pass, the seal can't be improved past that.

But, for a DIY job, you can be proud! Plumbers wouldn't do it the way you did, but we do this day in and day out.
The flexies you have fitted look spot on to be honest, no twisting or kinking.
Well done
If it's holding water and you have access to check it every so often, it'll be reyt - as we say in sunny Bolton.

 

[mo7]

I aimed to put the jointing compound on the end of the pipe but I often put too much on which squeezed it into the thread.

Does it go hard or does it stay soft?

On the bit where I have lots of compression joints, I have about an inch of original 15mm pipe to work with as it goes off behind some boxing.

 

[JCplumb]

I've seen compound that's set solid before now, no idea what kind as I was the one trying to clean it off, not put it on.
As I said, just a smear on the olive will be plenty

 

[Best]

Depends on what paste you used. I use Jet Lube V2, which will never harden and is for potable water. If you used Boss White or similar, you shouldn't really have as they will harden with heat and really only for heating pipes.

 

[Best]

I've seen compound that's set solid before now, no idea what kind as I was the one trying to clean it off, not put it on.
As I said, just a smear on the olive will be plenty

Boss White is one of them. It oozes into threads of nuts and sets hard. It has a linseed oil base.

 

[mo7]

I used Fernox Water Hawk or something - from Screwfix.

Its like chewing gum.

 

[Best]

I used Fernox Water Hawk or something - from Screwfix.

Its like chewing gum.

I am not sure about that. Some of the Fernox paste is near identical to Boss White.
It is supposed to be potable on all cold and hot supplies.
Boss White has been used for years - now it is wrong to do so, but whether it actually does any harm or not is hard to know.
Edit, - just looked it up and I see it is, as its name suggests, Fernox Water Hawk is for potable water, so nothing wrong with it.

 

[mo7]

ok well i will see if i can get a pipe bender off someone i know at work tomorrow, if not i can hire one for a tenner or buy a cheapo from wickes for £25.

I could do the rigid pipe with a few comrpession joints i spose but i fancy a go on the pipe bender.

if i buy the oen from wickes is there any way i can try and forsee if it wil lcrease pipes before I buy?

 

[JCplumb]

The usual cause of copper pipe creasing in a bender is cheap copper.
Buy quality British copper pipe from your local independant merchant, don't get it from one of the big sheds.
Had my first pipe bender about 10 years and it only used to cause creases with cheap copper, it wasn't an age thing, or temperature thing and I used the same guides etc. on every piece of pipe I bent.
Although I might add that 22mm was partial to the occasional ripple, even with quality copper.

 

[newcastle phill]

Nahh cheap, dimensionally incorrect guides everytime.
I buy the cheapest copper i can get my mits on.
It has the same BS as the expensive stuff.

I never have a problem with it throating. Only ever with nasty cheap benders.

Maybe im just lucky !

 

[plumben]

Usually the isolating valves are never needed and can seize up or leak if not decent quality IMO.
Not needed I believe.

As per the water regs each appliances/outlet should have the ability to be independently isolated

All though I agree there usually useless I still fit them to everything where practical, but usually just put to good quality full bores on the hot and cold incoming into the bathroom

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I don't like flexi's personally but have used them in difficult tight spaces, the key is to buy wras ones and not kink or twist them up and really you only need to have isolation valves on float operated valves for maintenance.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

As per the water regs each appliances/outlet should have the ability to be independently isolated

All though I agree there usually useless I still fit them to everything where practical, but usually just put to good quality full bores on the hot and cold incoming into the bathroom

The regs state that float operated valves need to be isolated. Doesn't actually mention about any other appliance

 

[newcastle phill]

Basins and sinks. Bogs Bides etc. Read it somewhere. Need iso's

 

[rpm]

Like this?

 

[rpm]

Opps, dunno why it`s sideways!