Called time on one of the lads plumbing careers today.

[cr0ft]

So, the lad I've got through his NVQ 2 and has had his own van for a year or so now. Got back from my electrical assessment today and walked into the bathroom I had left him on. He's just finished adjusting radiator pipework for first fix. Pipes coming out of the wall are in chromed copper as asked for. I noticed 2x push fit speedfit fittings on the end. Quick question asked by me - is that push fit fittings I see on chromed copper? Yes, he replies, oblivious to the issue despite having been told before about it and us always fitting compression fittings at first fix on every bathroom we've done together. Get them off now and swap them for compression fittings before the ice plugs melt in the pipework and you flood the bathroom I say. Yes, run down to the van please.

There's been a fair few issues recently, he left open ends on heating system pipework on a system we were doing and screwed the floorboards back down without telling anyone they were open. We went to pressurise the system and water ****ed out.

Not tightening up lockshield/TRV/compression nuts in general properly/at all resulting in water ****ing out everywhere.

Sat down and had a chat with him afterwards when my other lad was out the way and have politely suggested that plumbing isn't for him. There's been a few issues recently again and if he hasn't grasped basics like this after 2 years it isn't likely to happen. He just doesn't have the organisational skills or attention to detail to ever make a good plumber. I've offered to give him another chance if he wants to stay with us and get him back to college to do an electrical apprenticeship. Organisation isn't so important for that as there's much less stock and tools to carry and he would be working from a much smaller van. Attention to detail, whilst important, isn't as important as most of it isn't on show unlike plumbing. He's also got a fair amount of previous electrical experience.

I like the lad but his ability to think worries me silly. If I had got there 10 minutes later it's rather likely the contents of the sealed heating system would be pouring out over the first floor.

I don't feel I'm being too harsh but it's tricky being the boss and not having anyone to chat to about these things!

 

[kris]

Its your employee but if I think it's great a second year apprentice has his own van and can be left on jobs by himself. We all make mistakes and will usually learn from them. I've seen fully trained guys probably worse than your second year apprentice. We don't know all the mistakes he's made only you can make your decision based on that but kids nowadays seem to be a more laxed breed lol.

 

[gasmanrob]

I remember previous posts on this lad and in fairness you've given it plenty of time. Think last time round you were going to try and put a little more time in with him yourself and see how it went from there. If I'm not mistaken that is..

 

[cr0ft]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. He's finished his NVQ2 apprenticeship at college now, this is his third year with us. He's not too bad on smaller jobs but there are just too many stupid mistakes happening now. Each one could be costing us big time.

He's just much more of a natural electrician than plumber. Sometimes I think you have to be totally honest with people and tell them they've made a wrong choice of career. His earning potential will certainly be higher if I retrain him as a sparky as he definitely seems to have plateaued in terms of plumbing performance over the last 6 months.

 

[Ermintrude]

We have a chap when he's good he's really good when he's crap he's really crap.

Has problems with money- no matter how much he has he borrows twice as much and then is in bother next week. He's a ****ing nightmare. Moody and on phone loads , lend him £5k and he's roses for a month or two then starts again. He's been on thin ice every day of his life. Hope he will change know he never will.

The Van he has is a wreck and always a mess he uses van excessively at weekend s and e evenings doing small jobs and moving stuff for reward but he's still got a job.

 

[cr0ft]

I remember previous posts on this lad and in fairness you've given it plenty of time. Think last time round you were going to try and put a little more time in with him yourself and see how it went from there. If I'm not mistaken that is..

Yes it's the same lad sadly. He's a really nice lad but he has major problems organising himself and planning pipe routes etc. That's why I think he would make a better electrician. You don't need to be able to plan the work as much as cables are much easier to bend round each other last minute than pipes are

It would be working from a smaller van as well so less stock to take care of organising etc.

I've given him the weekend to have a think but told him if he wants to retrain there's still a job for him with me as he has a great work ethic and I very much want to keep him, just not as a plumber!

 

[turnpin]

There are many reading this Kieran who would like to have a boss like you fair but firm you have offered him another route out of this where many would have just let him go ....let's hope he appreciates what you do ....regards Turnpin:smile5:

 

[kris]

The fact you want to keep him speaks volumes, I hope you find a happy medium where everyone wins. I hope he realises how lucky he is.

 

[cr0ft]

Yeah I will pay for his retraining as well. Because of his experience in the RAF doing electrical work it will probably be the short course route but it's still a couple of grand.

Felt a bit bad saying it today but it's the right decision. Sometimes being a boss sucks!!

 

[gasmanrob]

You can pay for my electrics course if you like I'll cover any work you get in Kent... Sound fair?

Good I'll start Wednesday

 

[WaterTight]

I don't feel I'm being too harsh but it's tricky being the boss and not having anyone to chat to about these things!

You wouldn't be posting it if you didn't doubt yourself - at least a little - and were looking for reassurance. Unless you are just passionate about the sharing of anecdotes I suppose.

You seem like you're a fair and conscientious boss. Which probably means you will be successful but torture yourself endlessly en route. Look at the dead-eyed, self-loving vampires on Dragon's Den. They'd waste no time on wondering whether this pawn was justifiably expended.

 

[REDSAW]

better the devil you know!

 

[Masood]

You're a generous and very fair boss mate. A lot of people would have just turfed him out...

 

[plumben]

I remember the other posts on this,

In all fairness I think your possibly one of the best bosses any one could ask for, and when running a business its the smart thing to do is eliminate the bad parts,

By the sounds of it he's not cut out for working by himself and if he's making little mistakes like not checking all the nuts are tight or leaving open ends and not telling anyone, imagine if it was Gas...

And if he dose retrain I think it would be beneficial for you to help him get his organization sorted out

 

[Best]

Completely unexceptable and inexcusable that he used push fit onto chromed pipe. And that he often fails to fully tighten, or not at all compression fittings! Those are all IMO the most basic things to learn to do in plumbing and he should have known how to do all that inside one intensive first week training (if that was possible on certain jobs) and that's being generous with time. Soldering and bending copper pipes, a different story and would need a lot of time.

 

[wetdrip]

Yes it's the same lad sadly. He's a really nice lad but he has major problems organising himself and planning pipe routes etc. That's why I think he would make a better electrician. You don't need to be able to plan the work as much as cables are much easier to bend round each other last minute than pipes are

It would be working from a smaller van as well so less stock to take care of organising etc.

I've given him the weekend to have a think but told him if he wants to retrain there's still a job for him with me as he has a great work ethic and I very much want to keep him, just not as a plumber!

You come across as a top bloke.

 

[cr0ft]

Cheers guys. I just realised when I saw those push fit fittings on chrome pipe today that that was it for me.

I can empathise with him because when I was learning to fly in the military I wasn't making the grade, brain wasn't fast enough. I was under so much stress as a result because the instructors where always on at me. When I found something I was better at (running my own business) life became a lot better. Hoping it will be that way for him.

Am working with him all day on Monday so will have a good chance to chat to him then and see what he wants to do.

 

[wetdrip]

Lets hope it's a real wake-up call for him and he starts applying himself, and he appreciates your patience.

 

[cr0ft]

Hope so matey. I can think of better things to use the money I've got from getting him through his plumbing apprenticeship on otherwise.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I don't feel I'm being too harsh but it's tricky being the boss and not having anyone to chat to about these things!

I've been doing this for donkeys years, and I still find the need to chat them over sometimes. I'm lucky to have MickW, my FD and a handful of senior and trusted people to talk things through with, but if you get to the point where you are always sure you are right, then you become the kind of a$$hole boss cariacatured in sit coms.

For what its worth, there are four basic principles that have served me well over the years.

1) Talk about the behaviour, not the person. Remind him that putting pushfit on chrome is dangerous, rather than saying he is an idiot for putting pushfit on chrome. Press the point that not tightening nuts causes expensive leaks, but there is no need to abuse him personally for not tightening nuts.

2) You should handle the difficult conversations in such a manner that when its over, he is focussing on HIS behaviour, and not YOUR behaviour. You can be making the most valid criticisms in the world, but if you make them in an aggressive or abusive way, he will rightly focus on your aggression and abuse, and not the substance of the criticism.

3) Once you have made a tough decision, tell him. Don't beat about the bush, and make it clear that the decision is yours to make - and own it. For example, I would recommend against statements that require agreement, or even that can be argued with. If you say "Don't you think its time you considered another career?" then you risk the answer "No, I don't." If you say "You just aren't committed to this line of work", they you might get the come back "Oh, yes boss, I surely am, its just that {insert cock-and-bull-story]"

However, if you say "I have lost confidence in leaving you unsupervised in a customers house, and have therefore decided that you can't be a long term part of our plumbing team" then no one can argue with that. If you have lost confindence, who can contradict you? If you have made a decision, that is your right as the boss.

4) Finally, remember that everyone has their self respect. They have to go home to their wife, girl-friend, mother, kids and explain they have lost their job. Thats tough enough, and there is no need to make it worse that it has to be.

• Punish behaviour, not people
• Make them focus on their behaviour, not your behaviour
• Own the decision
• Stay human.

For what its worth, I think this bloke is lucky to have you as a boss.

And the day you stop worrying about it is the day to sell up and pack it in.

 

[Whyme]

Over the years as an employee ive had many an apprentice, some vacant some keen some non plus and i have to report back unfortunately no matter how much i like or dislike them. Some lads just cannot as long as thieve got a harris grasp the basic fundamentals of plumbing. Very fair of you to explain in such a way cos most bosses wouldn't.

 

[SimonG]

Times up. A screw up with pipes and water is an easy spot. Trying to find a swapped neutral and earth with the rcd popping is a different matter.

 

[lame plumber]

Apprentices are like trainee lifeboat crew, all muppets until one day you realise you wouldnt mind having them on a boat with you at one in the morning in a storm, but until then god help the one in charge, occasionally you have to show a few of them the door in order to get the right gang for the bad nights at sea..

 

[newcastle phill]

Who knows it might be the making of the lad.
I remember when I was young and was placed at a relative back street hovvel.
There wasnt the staff or the time to train as required.
I managed to get a move and things improved ten fold. More staff, more resources and better to access individuals with more rounded skills and time to train the right way. With proper structured work flow.

Now in some regards the same applies to you as applies to a trainee.
Where it comes down to is a trainee able to learn - are you able to teach ?
Some places can be too small, too ambitious to have the time.
They may think they do but on reflection as a young lad from my experience some just didnt.

Can port vale youth academy produce ronaldo ?
Now stick him at real madrid and you get a finished product that meets expectation.

One place i worked had an ethos that if a trainee failed - then the training department had failed. They vetted candidates at the outset and when expectations werent met the trainers had an inquisition with a manager borne out of a desire to realise thier investment and extra support was put in place as necessary.

Now i realise you arent a huge company but on reflection could you have done anything different or liaised with the college for support ?

 

[wetdrip]

One place i worked had an ethos that if a trainee failed - then the training department had failed.

Off the topic so my apologies to Croft.

When my kid was at college I took a great interest as to what was being taught and how, popped in a good few times, I did, and talked to the kid.
The course overran due to poor teaching and organizational skills.
I had a meeting with the college head and all the other big-shots plus the plumbing staff members and their immediate boss and his boss too.
Basically told them that they didn’t know there ar5e from their elbow, and that the staff were seriously lacking in many of the necessaries required to do their job and do it properly.
As one would expect, the senior staff backed-up their ground staff and nowt happened.
Well nowt happened that year.
The following year the senior staff cleared out every member of staff I’d said was useless.
As the same thing happen with the new influx of pupils.

Deservedly so, as their laziness was ruining young lives.

 

[leelister6]

Think you're handling it very well but what will he be like as a sparky? He doesn't seem to be able to follow instructions even after being told 3 or 4 times so what happens on a 1st fix, he forgets to label up his wiring, it all gets plastered in and you've got 2 miles of spaghetti and no-one knows whats what. Really hope he doesn't let you down and gets his head in gear cos a lot of people would have binned him a long time ago

 

[hammers4spanner]

Cycles of life in fairness can't be good at everything.

 

[Millsy 82]

Come on admit it, you just don't want to pay travelling time. Lol

 

[Riley]

Is this the same lad that pranged the van

 

[Destroyer2813]

Is this the same lad that pranged the van

Lost the key i thought

 

[Riley]

Ha ha the list continues hope we're not talking croft out of his decision

 

[cr0ft]

Lost the key i thought

Yes same one that did both..

 

[rpm]

Ask yourself would you do anything differently if the lad was your own son?

 

[Riley]

Ask yourself would you do anything differently if the lad was your own son?

Yes, play the I'm not angry just disappointed card

 

[cr0ft]

Don't think I would tbh. Met up with him for a informal chat today and he seems to agree about retraining as an electrician. Am going to give him one last stab at making a tradesman of himself.