Bentone B11 burner always locking out.

[Best]

Anyone any ideas? Never had bad luck like this!
At a boiler with a Bentone B11 burner that would constantly lock out after about 2hours on.
Firstly, this burner is only 3 year old & in brand new condition to look at. I have checked nearly everything including the oil getting to burner, the strength of spark, etc etc & all excellent. It is not the control box or the photocell or the solenoid or the capacitor! Burner runs lovely. I am thinking the solenoid valve is perhaps faulty but haven't had any bother before.
Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[AtlasGas]

Fuel starvation? Have you checked the fuel filter?

 

[SimonG]

I had one similar. If i had hair i would have pulled it out. Turned out to be the ebm.

 

[Best]

Fuel starvation? Have you checked the fuel filter?

Thanks for quick reply!
Yes, my thoughts today was fuel filter, which is same age as boiler - 3 years, but flow of oil is excellent. Boiler runs from cold for probably 2 hours approx.

 

[SimonG]

You had a new nozzle in. Had a wallstar with symptons of coil it was late i was tired. Changed coil ran fine while i was there and for the next few days. Then locked out then ran fine. Went back to it in the daylight and stuck a new nozzle in. Spot on.

 

[AtlasGas]

How about a small air leak, have you checked the vacuum on the pump?

 

[Best]

I had one similar. If i had hair i would have pulled it out. Turned out to be the ebm.

?? ebm ? - is that burner motor?
I am calm enough about it, but this is getting ridiculous, - everything seems 100% & burner literally begins start up with motor running instantly. One strange thing I noticed was the capacitor (one in aluminium case) was oozing out what looks & feels like tree sap! I replaced the capacitor.

 

[SimonG]

Sorry transformer. Im on my phone and its fattest finger first.

Aye nice and sticky that stuff in the capacitors. Nearly as bad as spray foam.

 

[SimonG]

?? ebm ? - is that burner motor?
I am calm enough about it, but this is getting ridiculous, - everything seems 100% & burner literally begins start up with motor running instantly. One strange thing I noticed was the capacitor (one in aluminium case) was oozing out what looks & feels like tree sap! I replaced the capacitor.

Missed that. So theres no delay from motor starting to burner firing? Needs a new stem.

 

[Best]

You had a new nozzle in. Had a wallstar with symptons of coil it was late i was tired. Changed coil ran fine while i was there and for the next few days. Then locked out then ran fine. Went back to it in the daylight and stuck a new nozzle in. Spot on.

Not the nozzle. Was doing this before I went & I used correct new nozzle & it is def burning good. Nothing I have done has helped it. Electrodes are not cracked & leads are okay. Only parts I haven't tried are the transformer, motor & oil pump.

 

[Best]

How about a small air leak, have you checked the vacuum on the pump?

No, I didn't. Oil line should be sound, - as I did it! :smile:
Also the oil tank is not too low. Only possible leak would be at pipe at tank connection, but I doubt if any leak. I take your point & will check that all out.

 

[Best]

Missed that. So theres no delay from motor starting to burner firing? Needs a new stem.

Sorry, ignore my wording - what I meant was the motor turns nice & sharp, therefore it seems both the motor & new capacitor are good & not under any load.

 

[SimonG]

No problem. Back to my transformer theory then.

 

[AtlasGas]

Have you been there when it locks out? Is it during startup or while it's running?

 

[Best]

No problem. Back to my transformer theory then.

For the sake of a few minutes, I might as well replace the transformer, - I have tried the more obvious parts! Spark is very strong however, but perhaps it fails after the transformer is used more when the boiler starts to cycle when the house comes up to heat after an hour or so.
A couple of blessings are - the people are decent & they live close!

 

[Best]

Have you been there when it locks out? Is it during startup or while it's running?

No, AtlasGas, I prefer to see it going to lockout, but I would have to waste a couple hours sitting outside in the cold. It constantly will run off & on for about 2 hours until lockout.

 

[Best]

Thanks to you both for the advice! I will go back tomorrow & replace the transformer & test the oil line while I am there. Normally I sort the fault first go. This has to be a record - that will be the 5th time I will call & still counting! :smile:
Will report back.

 

[Killy Bing]

Coil breaking down? Abit soon. Butt if you have a spare swap it out, if it runs without locking out then leave it on, if not swap the old one back

 

[Best]

Coil breaking down? Abit soon. Butt if you have a spare swap it out, if it runs without locking out then leave it on, if not swap the old one back

No, not the coil, - I replaced it first & boiler still had same problem. I carry new Danfoss solenoids always. The faulty Danfoss solenoids I find either die totally or last from cold up to a maximum of one hour on continuously. I replaced the coil on test really & when that didn't cure it, I thought it had to be the box. Just hope I haven't got a faulty brand new part!

 

[Killy Bing]

Intermittent faults, satisfying to solve but a pain in the backside

 

[WHPES]

Have you checked the fuel supply / oil tank for presence of water? Have had that causing lockouts after an hour or so in the past.

Check fuel filters including the one on the fuel pump.

 

[Best]

Have you checked the fuel supply / oil tank for presence of water? Have had that causing lockouts after an hour or so in the past.

Check fuel filters including the one on the fuel pump.

I normally do check the tank & filter for dirt/water, but for various reasons I thought that unlikely - the old nozzle & assembly was spotless, oil filter is 3 year old, oil tank is a type that rain water cannot enter & I ran the oil into a container from the oil hose & flow was great & oil clean.
But I know I need to check that out properly & will also do that tomorrow.

 

[Soggy]

Do you know at what stage is locks out? Does the motor spin up before the lockout but no ignition?

I have had a few like this that turned out to be the pump. Seems that if it stopped in a particular place, it stalled the motor but would then restart.

 

[kimbo]

I had a similar one with a sterling burner, as previously said I would have gone for the transformer. After the 3rd visit it turned out to be a ht lead partially blocking the photocell. Could have kicked myself for not checking first time

 

[Best]

Do you know at what stage is locks out? Does the motor spin up before the lockout but no ignition?

I have had a few like this that turned out to be the pump. Seems that if it stopped in a particular place, it stalled the motor but would then restart.

No idea what stage it goes to lockout. It one of those problems that only occurs it seems after it has been running for probably 2 hours. A tight spot on oil pump or motor bearings - I watch out for, but nothing seems wrong with them & the entire burner would easily pass as brand new!

 

[Best]

I had a similar one with a sterling burner, as previously said I would have gone for the transformer. After the 3rd visit it turned out to be a ht lead partially blocking the photocell. Could have kicked myself for not checking first time

I thought on the ht leads & checked them when I examined the electrodes for cracks. The ht leads are a bit long but are folded away from photocell. In fact, I checked & thought just about everything. The boiler hadn't been touched & suddenly started this locking out. Nothing I have done has made any difference. I am happy to replace the transformer to test, but old one seems fine. I have been wondering if something is wrong with oil pump or it's stem, but this burner is only 3 years old & mechanically would normally be very reliable as you know.

 

[Soggy]

Unfortunately, with this type of problem, you may have to diagnose by trial and error. Keep swapping things until you find it.

At least it locks out every two hours, so you should be able to fix it quickly, not so easy when the intermittent fault only occurs every week or two.

 

[Dotty]

Short of air being pulled in I'd also be looking at the pump and the integrity of the pipework.

Another good one that caught me out once is debris in the tank that's too big to go down the outlet.

 

[snowhead]

Couldn't you get the customer to ring you when they've reset it and then you arrive 1+1/2hrs later.

You'd only be in the cold for 1/2 hr or less.

 

[bright spark]

Had a problem like this in the past with one of these. Talked to bentones man in Ireland. He said to change the motor. Did it and it worked for me. It was a similar situation to yours.

 

[Best]

I went to the boiler later today with the intention of checking the oil pump etc & if all okay then either replacing the motor or the transformer as all else had been tried.
Luckily the boiler had been on a short time, so I first took a look at the spark & it was a lot different than previously - although consistently sparking, it was no longer a very strong spark it had been earlier tests. I have replaced the EB1 transformer in a few minutes & spent an hour & a half waiting. Hopefully that sorts it.

 

[Dotty]

I went to the boiler later today with the intention of checking the oil pump etc & if all okay then either replacing the motor or the transformer as all else had been tried.
Luckily the boiler had been on a short time, so I first took a look at the spark & it was a lot different than previously - although consistently sparking, it was no longer a very strong spark it had been earlier tests. I have replaced the EB1 transformer in a few minutes & spent an hour & a half waiting. Hopefully that sorts it.

Eejit! You should've kept quiet! You know you've cursed yourself now! Hopefully you're right though.


Why haven't we got you in the Arms?

 

[Best]

Eejit! You should've kept quiet! You know you've cursed yourself now! Hopefully you're right though.
Why haven't we got you in the Arms?

I will look an idiot if this doesn't solve it. I'll just never admit it! :smile:
Maybe some day I will join the Arms! Would love to know what goes on in that secret place. :grin:
Thanks to all of you for the advice! Just goes to show, if this works, never trust a transformer that gives a strong spark!

 

[Dotty]

I will look an idiot if this doesn't solve it. I'll just never admit it! :smile:
Maybe some day I will join the Arms! Would love to know what goes on in that secret place. :grin:
Thanks to all of you for the advice! Just goes to show, if this works, never trust a transformer that gives a strong spark!

Got fed up waiting for you to get off your aristotle. I've put the wheels in motion for ya

 

[kimbo]

Eb1 transformers are renowned for intermittent lockouts. Always keep a couple in the van

 

[Best]

I keep a new EB1 in a case together with control boxes etc.
If it proves to have been the transformer, then I made the mistake of ruling it out because the spark (which I repeatedly tested several times on a couple of visits) was always very strong. Hard to know what approach would have been better, other than waiting for hours. Thankfully it is close to me.

 

[kimbo]

I have come across these before when other so called engineers cant fix them so they tell the customer they need a new boiler.
hope it all works out best never easy these intermittent lockouts but we always get there in the end

 

[Best]

Yes Kimbo, have seen a lot of fairly young boilers with brand new burners fitted where no doubt just a little part would have sorted the original burner. Or an entire new boiler as the customer probably is easy prey when they have an ongoing failing burner. I would always fix anything viable if cost isn't going to be close to a entirely new item. This time I wasted a few visits, but usually I don't take much time finding a fault - so really can't complain & I will stay easy going. :smile:

 

[Bunker]

I didn't post on this as you know what your doing and I couldn't find anything that hadnt already been said, except have you done an FGA? Check its not over aired and blowing itself out.
Hopefully you fixed it anyway.

 

[Best]

No worries Bunker, - I was only putting the question out there to see if anyone had came across similar problem.
I knew the combustion was fine, as had tested it after service & new nozzle, but it had been prior to that locking out. Burner is on a WB std utility boiler which I could set easily & firstly had been done by me at commissioning years ago. Boiler always started on press of lockout whether warm or cold start & co2 was I think above 11%, so was confident not over aired.

 

[WHPES]

The posted problem is also a good example as to the fact that it is always a good idea to retain second hand burners from scrapped boilers as it can be far easier to swap a faulty burner (or parts from it) for a working second hand one to save messing about fault finding if you are very busy.

 

[Best]

The posted problem is also a good example as to the fact that it is always a good idea to retain second hand burners from scrapped boilers as it can be far easier to swap a faulty burner (or parts from it) for a working second hand one to save messing about fault finding if you are very busy.

If it had been severe weather I would have swapped the burner. I have an old B11 burner would have done temp. I also have loads of electrical parts for them - better to have a second hand part than nothing.
Just an update on the boiler - no messages received, so the new EB1 transformer must have fixed it.

 

[Best]

Just received a text from customer to thank me for sorting the boiler as it has been running fine with new transformer. Lesson is - don't assume a nice strong spark on several tests means a transformer won't fail intermittently.
Thanks for all the replies & help! :smile:

 

[SimonG]

Glad you got it sorted.

 

[Best]

Glad you got it sorted.

Thanks Simon, - your first reply was spot on. You were lucky though! :smile: Let's call it an educated guess!
I did everything right, except i probably should have waited an hour at least, but just didn't find anything wrong.
Had one yesterday on a friends boiler - another EB1 but no spark & the back of transformer had a large blister. Seem to get a run of same things.

 

[Bunker]

...EB1 but no spark & the back of transformer had a large blister......

Did you change the control box too? Often this is caused by the box....cause and effect etc

 

[Best]

Did you change the control box too? Often this is caused by the box....cause and effect etc

On my friends boiler, I didnt replace the Satronic control box & that is a very good point!
He is an Electrician & had already diagnosed the fault himself & I let him get on with it himself.
I know that is a common thing on the Satronic boxes to do.

 

[Lou]

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